Of a (say) 90-minute service, how much should be devoted to songs, announcements, other things?
How long should the sermon be?
How many choruses?
How many hymns?
What is excessive?
And, in every case, on what principle?
This is a more-or-less free-for-all, but within the posted blog rules, and my apparently random (but judicious) exertion of sheer sphere sovereignty. And I further stipulate that this is a discussion over those things, not over whether we should discuss those things.
Keep it friendly.
246 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 246 of 246"Almost. I get up in the middle of the service to get some more coffee."
But.?.. Isn't that what the Deacons are for? To bring the coffee refills?
~Squirrel
I loved a church we visited where, precisely on time, one song was sung, then the pastor stood up and said, "open your Bibles..." and off he went into a marvelous sermon. It gave a true sense of "THIS is what we're here for" to the service, and the worship-through-song that came AFTER his sermon was a group of people giving glory to God for the Word, well-preached.
(is that 200??)
As we break the ribbon, I have to say: I'm very touched (truly) by how many of you took it on yourselves to make my fairly-lightly-flung title a reality.
It makes you look really good.
It makes me look pathetic... but you look great!
I am blessed with some of the best folks as readers, and I don't forget it nor take it for granted.
Now Jill brings another thought: how to end the service.
I can make mult arguments on that one. The church I attended for six years put announcements at the end, and I've nothing critical to say about that. Sometimes the announcer would use it to add a brief, fitting thought to the sermon.
Then there is the practice of having a suitable hymn for reflection after the sermon, which also makes sense.
OTOH, what of just preaching, closing in prayer, and sending folks off with the Word ringing in their ears?
"But.?.. Isn't that what the Deacons are for? To bring the coffee refills?"
You know... Deacons were originally instituted because the apostles discerned a need for someone to take care of practical considerations, to avoid distraction from ministry.
Application: If people are being distracted from the service by caffeine withdrawal, then the church should institute the office of barrista.
Brilliant!
DJP: "what of just preaching, closing in prayer, and sending folks off with the Word ringing in their ears"?
Other than a rare closing reflective hymn, this is how - and why - our Pastor ends the worship service.
He has on many occasions made the point that the whole church service is worship; our worship culminates in the preaching of the Word. Not only that, but, the service itself should be the culmination of a week of family worship in our homes. (Ouch! The sting of conviction as I type that!)
Fail. <200 comments involved brawling of any kind.
Dan,
Re: Ending the service
I mentioned earlier that my church ends the service with an opportunity for prayer ministry. It started a few months ago. I've been on both sides (pray-er and pray-ee), and I must say I've appreciated it.
We have a few pairs/trios up front--elders, small group leaders, and others. Anyone desiring prayer (in response to the sermon or otherwise) is invited to come forward.
It's combined with a time of reflection, before the congregation is dismissed.
Yes, perhaps I should have added that the 6-year church that ends with announcements has pastor and officers standing at front, and invites anyone desiring prayer or ministry to come down and have at it. Which seems to me a just-fine way to do it.
I think of the preaching as the center of the service.
My experience in college was that students generally did much better at remembering the material from a 50-minute than a 85-minute class.
My experience in training in the corporate world is the same; most teachers break the material up into about 1-hour blocks.
Thus, I'd argue that the sermon should not normally be longer than 1 hour.
Also, the sermon should end when the preacher runs out of things to say. Someone who stretches 10 minutes of material into a 50 minute sermon is wasting everyone's time.
My preferred organization for a 90-minute service would be that of my former (PCA) church:
Four hymns, a prayer of adoration and confession (congregational), a prayer of thanksgiving and petition (by an elder), an OT and an NT reading--all together about 35 minutes.
A 20-30 minute sermon.
A 20-25 minute Lord's Supper.
The doxology and benediction.
Announcements after the service.
Hymns with piano accompaniment, with the piano out of sight of the congregation.
I in no way object to more time reading Scripture; I like the Anglican 4 readings (Psalms, Gospel, OT, NT Epistle) quite a lot.
I think that having the Lord's Supper every Sunday is a good thing, and I miss it.
Announcements (before worship): 5 min.
Call to Worship: 2 min.
Silent prayer: 2 min.
Sung psalm based on psalm from CtW: 4 min.
Invocation and Lord's Prayer: 4 min.
Hymn: 4 min.
Response from the Psalter (Ps. 124:8)
Call to Repentance: 1 min.
Prayer of Confession: 2 min.
Assurance of Pardon and Gloria Patri: 2 min.
Shorter Catechism question and answer: 2 min.
Psalm or hymn in response to catechism: 4 min.
Offering/anthem/doxology: 8 min.
Scripture reading: 2 min.
Prayer of Illumination: 2 min.
Sermon: 30-40 min.
Prayer of Intercession: 5 min.
Hymn: 4 min.
Benediction and recessional: 2 min.
My husband patterns the worship after a form during the Reformation (Geneva, maybe?). We also don't have children's church, so I didn't allot for that.
DJP,
I forgot. Christians don't pray. Or really it's just a side thing.
Christians give it the place God gives it. See above, and here.
It's a word-of-God over against human-traditions thing.
Squirrel Said - I don't hate music. In fact, Dad was a music minister for years. What I object to is the concept that worship = music-&-only-music that has become the norm. As in, "We have worship followed by the sermon..."
Sing, please. But the primary act of worship, the primary way we grow closer to God, is the study of His Word.
I say:
I couldn't agree with you more.
I am just rattling the cages of the preachers. As guilty as the music people can be of thinking their puting on a show, I think preachers can be just as guilty of an attitude that says, "hey, that's enough with the singing praises to God, this is my show after all." Again, just a little cage rattling.
I don't know if I am too late to add anything not already said, but here goes.
The covenant of Grace seems to provide a model for our worship… A pattern that is often repeated in Scripture (I think Isaiah 6 provides an excellent frame for our worship).
1. There a Call to Worship. This is God’s calling of men and women into His presence. Accomplished in worship by the reading of some portion of the Word to that end. “Enter His gates with Thanksgiving and into His Courts with praise…”
2. A Confession of Sin in response to the Holiness of God. “I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple…” “woe is me for I am undone…” etc. We accomplish this in our confession of sin, usually a corporate confession.
3. A lifting up of the repentant sinner by God Himself. "Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth with it, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; Your iniquity is taken away, And your sin purged." Accomplished in the pronouncement of forgiveness of those who repent.
4. The consecration of Saints of God. The hearing of the Word: sung, read, and preached.
5. Communion with God. There is a sign of God’s favor, a seal of the promises of God given to men in the Lord’s Supper. It should be a part of every worship service.
6. Commission of the Saints. God sends Isaiah into the world with His word and the Lord sends us. Accomplished by formally sending the congregation out into the harvest by way of the Great Commission or similar passage.
7. Response of the Congregation is to God with God’s name on them. Accomplished with the joy of praise on their lips as the Benediction is pronounced. The Lord bless you and keep you etc…
One note on singing before I go back to my Presbyterian lesser place… The last two generations of the Church are the first to not sing the Psalms as part of worship. For almost 2,000 years the Psalms were sung by the Church. Even when singing was taken away from the congregation the Psalms were sung by choirs!
Praise God there seems to be an effort to recapture this aspect of worship. It is the peoples duty in worship to Psalm God and talk of His work in the world:
1 Chron 16:8-9
8 Oh, give thanks to the LORD!
Call upon His name;
Make known His deeds among the peoples!
9 Sing to Him, sing psalms to Him;
Talk of all His wondrous works!
al sends
Based on the principle of 2 Tim 4:2 ("preach the word"), I'd say that the entire time (regardless of time specifics) should be in the Word. That may be praying the Word, preaching the Word, singing the Word (e.g., Col 3:16), and so on. Whatever you do (in whatever order and proportion), I'm thinking it should all be done to glorify God. But, hey, I'm entitled to a little bit of a crazy opinion.
chopstickschan: We went to a service (well, most of it) where the "special music" was a warm rendition of Lennon's "Imagine". Seriously.
"Good job, Scottie. How did you do it?"
"I just plugged the warp drive into my iPhone."
"Maybe those should be mandatory gear along with phasers and communicators. Make a note on that, Spock."
Stan, I couldn't have lasted that one. I turn funny colours when I hear that "song" as it is.
"Good job, Scottie. How did you do it?"
"I just plugged the warp drive into my iPhone."
"Maybe those should be mandatory gear along with phasers and communicators. Make a note on that, Spock."
"Bad news, Captain! Apple has removed that application from the App Store."
"JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBBBBSSSSSSSSSS!"
Martin Bucer, from whom most of our Churches can trace their liturgies, said that music rendered the soul sensitive to the Word of God. He put the psalms in the vernacular and then put the Psalms into the mouths of the people.
Stan, let’s brawl… To say that singing has no place in worship is to repeat pure enlightenment thinking, which has done great damage to the Church over the years. Repent brother and embrace the Word of God.
By the way here is an example of Bucer’s liturgy from the early 1500’s.
al sends
not that there's a formula for success...
- 5 minutes scripture reading/prayer
- 15-20 minutes worship in song - varies from contemporary and/or hymns...as long as the songs are doctrinally true and focus on God
- 5 minutes welcome/announcements/prayer
- 60 minutes or more for the preaching of God's word
- 5 minutes for response song, benediction and reflection
- then yummy lunch fellowship
I cannot brawl if I cannot read... Stan said nothing like what I said.
Mea Culpa
al sends
Nice. The comments are at precisely 222. I hope no one else comments, and changes the total.
*blink*
...
*blink blink*
*crickets chirp*
Ha! Skip this blog a day, and up comes a something I'm very interested in, and a comment list that's 200+ deep.
What do I think a 90 minute worship service should be structured? Mark Hanson's post, 6th from the top, matches very closely how worship was structured in the CRC congregation we were a member of, decades back. And we took 90 minutes. Additionally I'd want to include the periodic reading of the Decalogue.
Why, and how is this justified is the more interesting question.
Firstly, a general human principle -- don't be stupid, crazy or evil.
Negatively, don't do anything God says not to do. Easy ones: no other gods, no idols to represent Yahweh, no cult prostitution.
Positively, I'm quite attracted to the notion of the regulative principle of worship. It's a brake on the craziness.
A couple of the things I've read lately have been polemical tracts written by Calvin -- his Reply to Sadoleto, and The Necessity for Reforming the Church. It's quite striking to me how much importance he placed on reforming worship.
And you Baptists -- I'd drop the baby dedications. Yeah, yeah, Samuel was dedicated. So what?
(I have no relevant comment to the body of your text, Dan--only to the title. Just wanted to say that I'm glad your claim has been warranted! For a while yesterday I was getting worried because you were at 160 something for a long time.
Beatles' "With A Little Help From My Friends" comes to mind....)
Squirrel: how exactly should we be preparing our hearts for worship. I'd submit that some of us prepare by talking to others. I'm tired on Sundays after a long work week and since I can't have my usual amount of caffeine that I'd normally have, the only thing that gets me out of my grumpy stage is to fellowship.
Dan: I can't stand announcements. We email them two days or more before the service and then print a bulletin. If you want me to read either don't give them to me at the service. Fortunately my church takes about two minutes to merely point out something out of the ordinary and that's it, generally.
Rachael: I now volunteer in children's church and I definately know the feeling. My church extends the service once a month for communion and there is no children's church. Still, try keeping a 2 year old occupied for 75 to 90 minutes. Honestly, I have trouble staying focused that long.
Others: I can't stay focused for a 90 minute movie much less a 2 hour service. A sermon that's like a lecture is good, but I need a break after 30 minutes. Even my college courses gave breaks after 40 minutes of lecture. For simple minded sermons, I'll tune you out after 30 minutes. I don't need 40 minutes to grasp 5th grade level instruction. And keep in mind that many of us go
to Sunday school before the service, which was already at least one hour of lecture.
My pastor recently rebuked those people who come
late to Sunday school. I told him thanks, I needed that. If you have some tardy people consider telling them to make an effort to get there on time.
Lee — Ha! Skip this blog a day....
And what have we learned?
Class?
What would cause somebody to skip a day reading this blog?
I'm suspicious.
Must be something in the water.
After skimming through the various comments, I'll add to my comment above: no screen, no projector, no powerpoint. None. You can do it.
Listen to T. David Gordon tell you why (even if he's wrong about chirographic culture).
"Lee — Ha! Skip this blog a day....
And what have we learned?"
Don't Do That Then.
Very good.
(c:
So, are we providing material for your book?
I'd like to comment on just one aspect of your question, and that is the sermon. I want to be careful here lest I venture off into "I think" or "I feel."
Scripture doesn't say how long a sermon should be. Examples in Scripture of "preaching" vary greatly. We have Ezra reading the law to the people in Nehemiah 8 from early morning until midday and "translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading." We also have Paul's sermon in Troas in Acts 20, a story which has been used by many to argue against long sermons lest people start falling out of windows.
But then there are other examples where we see preaching occurring and the length is unclear. Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount" can be read in a rather short amount of time, as can Peter's sermon in Acts 2. Of course, it seems fairly clear that what we have recorded for us in Scripture is, by God's design and providence, not every word they said when they preached.
But there are several things clear about preaching in Scripture. First, there IS a gift of preaching given to men, and therefore we can have certainty that the Holy Spirit equips and guides men in this practice. Secondly, preaching is to faithfully explain the Word of God. Thirdly, men, even men gifted to preach, are still prone to sinfulness, pride, arrogance, etc. and must be careful not to go beyond what Scripture says or to try and preach beyond where the Holy Spirit has led.
So how long should a sermon be? I would say as long as it needs to be for a gifted man, led by the Holy Spirit to faithfully explain a portion of Scripture, all the while making a sober self-assessment of his own giftedness, and making himself accountable to the elders so as not to venture off into selfish ambitions or "soap boxes."
From my own experience I have found that a sermon of 45-60 minutes by a gifted man faithfully explains a portion of Scripture. But I've also heard a portion of Scripture faithfully explained in 20 minutes as well as in and hour and a half. But these tend to be the exception.
So, forgive me for not addressing the other issues. The preaching of the Word is paramount in worship as it is the basis for everything else that is done. Therefore I have focused on this one point.
"...am I really going be get put in the position of seeming to say something critical of the Lord's Supper?"
Not at all. It's just one of my husband's favorite little "digs." Tim Bushong's comment helped flesh out what my Phil argues for. And, thankfully, when we do have communion, that's what takes place. It's a mini-sermon, usually done by an elder other than our pastor, and always with some kind of fencing of the table.
And my Phil holds to the mystical presence of Christ view of communion, thus why he personally advocates for having it weekly. It's a living symbol of what has (hopefully) just been thoroughly proclaimed.
Lee, nah. My own cogitation; also, I think it's good for pastors and elders to see such discussion. One gets in a rut, and every now and again it's good to find a way out of the rut, and consider whether or not it's a good rut.
(c:
It's a good word, Tom; thanks. I agree.
Not preaching regularly, I feel a particular need to say a lot whenever anyone unleashes me on a pulpit. But were I graced with a regular preaching ministry, I can well imagine that a series through a book could feature sermons of varying link — as the brother shared about preaching a briefer sermon on each of the Beatitudes, for instance. I can imagine that his thought was: two Beatitudes would be too much for one sermon, but I don't see a need to take __ minutes for just one, every time.
I just want to point out that this thread had to get TOTALLY DERAILED in order to cross the 200-comment threshold.
TOTALLY DERAILED. And not by me, mind you!
My rejoinder would be to go back to the original post and tap meaningfully on the words, "This is a more-or-less free-for-all, but within the posted blog rules."
You have a surrejoinder?
(c;
also, I think it's good for pastors and elders to see such discussion. --DJP
I'm not sure they do, often.
Our "adult pastor" one Sunday came into our SS class, and as a discussion starter asked about changes in church since, you know, back when. He got an earful. I for my part (I'm nothing special, just another Joe Pewsitter) threw in my 2 cents towards principle (why do we do what we do, what's the theology behind it) and history (there's a bigger world and longer history than 20th Cent. low church evangelicalism). The whole thing got derailed by the music argument.
He's been reading Who Stole My Church which makes me wonder if there's a "church transition" in the works.
I stand by my statement, in spite of your catholic-apologist-like defense of this meta obviously going off the rails.
First one to say "nazi" loses.
:-)
A true (Roman!) Catholic apologist would never appeal to the original text.
He would tell a story, appeal to decades of tradition, then mock you as Bubba-jean Buford-head Of 13210293 Denominations for referencing the actual text.
Of all the days that my computer had to break down. . .
"Scottie, don't worry about the iPhone apps; Sulu says he's picking up some strong energy readings emanating from "And His Ministers A Flame Of Fire".
:)
I don't care. Just preach the gospel in a way that feeds the flock. Just sing in a way that honors and praises God. Announce what's needed to unify the body in prayer for one another and allows people to know what they need to know about the fellowship events. Whatever, just do it all for the glory of God and go on. Just do the next thing, and don't worry so much.
The way our church does it currently is:
Announcements
Pastoral Prayer
Call to worship
Bible Reading
psalms, hymns and spiritual songs etc
(30 mins)
Sermon
(1 hour)
Closing Song
Benediction
(5 mins)
I would personally love a service if it was just preaching, communion and then a fellowship lunch. More like early church style.
Sigh. I'll turn out the lights, as always.
I have to admit, I skimmed through the last 45 messages or so.
Can I at least have one question answered here?
In the original churches, what did they do during the service, and why? Please note: I'm not looking for "well, Paul preached for 6 hours", blah blah blah. I'm looking for the WHAT and WHY answers, and a Biblical and historical answer to these questions. If I walked into a service where Paul was preaching and sat down, what would I see from start to finish, and why? Were any of these services ever historically recorded on paper as to what happened from beginning to end?
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