02 September 2009

In which I put my hand over my own mouth

by Frank Turk

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.
Since I am not hardly an example of this, Dear Pastor Reader, I leave this to your own reflection and consideration.






104 comments:

Doug Hibbard said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Frank Turk said...

That would make two ouches in one post.

Nice.

BaseDad said...

I guess I should say that I am glad that you didn't do what everyone else does......admit you are shamefully lacking in an area, then type a big huge BUT and heap bowls of hypocrisy on the flames of shame. Is this just an extension of "open gripe"? I hope the readers/commentors here don't give you a free pass.

If it is NOT possible to blog and follow this command, is the blog now an IDOL?

donsands said...

"To speak evil of no one"

Sometimes speaking the truth in love, can sound like you're speaking evil of someone. I don't think Paul meant never say anything bad about others.

He tells us to make note of the enemies of the Cross.

I was talking with a fellow the other day, and he began to speak about President Obama in a very evil way. I felt he thought I felt the same, but I didn't. I agreed with him that Obama was a bad President, but I also honored him as the President. This man spoke eil of Barak Obama.

Truth Unites... and Divides said...

"In which I put my hand over my own mouth"

by Frank Turk


If you think this is a good and biblical thing to do, then I encourage you in doing this good and biblical thing.

olan strickland said...

to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

The apostle Paul must have never been in on a baptist business meeting :)

Seriously though, I have to put my hand over my mouth. Oh me!

stratagem said...

DonSands
Agree, but there are some people who can't tell the difference between speaking evil of the man, and speaking evil of his policies.

Was John the Baptist speaking evil of Herod, or only speaking evil of his policy of having his brother's wife?

Daryl said...

BaseDad,

I don't give Frank a free pass, but knowing my own failings, and having read much of the wisdom which he has written, I am willing to put up with Frank's failings while I read.

I have been given mercy, so I must extend it where it is needed.

Frank,

Don't hide the candle because it isn't a perfect candle. You're not a pastor, you're a writer.
We don't sit under your teaching, we give you a hearing and take or leave your words as we will.

But a good post nonetheless.

Keep on.

Frank Turk said...

The truth is that one can blog, and offer real and penetrating criticism, and even be funny, and not have to be churlish and spiteful.

I don't often succeed.

BaseDad said...

Daryl, that's just it. I have benefited from the wisdom Frank shares. I have failed miserably. I also new participating in the meta.

I just think that we could all benefit from how Frank reconciles doing what he does in the blogosphere and this passaage of scripture.

"In which I put my hand over my own mouth"

What does this mean? Does it mean that since he is falling short here, we should just move on and let this train keep rolling?

We can't do this with our children, with the lost people we witness too, with our wives, and especailly not with ourselves.

The Word of God either has power or it doesn't - even power over the things we hold the most dear.

DJP said...

Here I'll do what I don't do, Frank: disagree with you publicly.

I think you do often succeed in offering witty, on-target, measured criticism which is neither churlish nor spiteful.

For whatever my testimony on the subject is worth.

Solameanie said...

What do you do in my case? I'm churlish, curmudgeonly, and short. Add to that my qualities of cynicism, hyperbole, occasional gaucheness, cantankerousness, obstreperousness, simmering volatility and two jaundiced eyes.

And those are my good days.

By the way, it can't be a good omen when your word verification is "lickspli."

Tim Pauley said...

I am particularly concerned if we are demonstrating this toward our "rulers" (vs. 1)

I am convicted and encouraged by the rest of the story in verses 3-7 showing us our motivation and empowerment to do so:

For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

stratagem said...

Tim - OK, great. Makes sense.
So would someone now tell me if John the Baptist erred when he publicly criticized Herod?

Frank Turk said...

DJP --

Of all the people who I would have disagree with me publicly, you're one of them. However, the time I do well here do not erase the times I fail, and when I fail, I fail big.

It's a good thing grace is bigger.
________________________

BaseDad:

TeamPyro has blogged about this subject extensively -- because a lot of people think we have never done well in this arena. That's obviously not true, but I have to be honest: I'm feling a bit more convicted than convicting today.

here are some links if you ned some help with this passage:

The tag "tone"
This one by me on Humble Orthodoxy
This one which convict anyone who listened to the radio in the late 70's and early 80's

And you could think about it on your own, too. You could do it.

Tim Pauley said...

Stratagem -

The "speaking evil", "gentleness", and "courtesy" all point to our attitude towards rulers and all people, even as we share with them the fact they are sinners.

It is when we forget (verses 3-7) that we were, indeed still are, sinners ourselves that we can easily become angry, self-righteous, and argumentative in our dealings with others. This points us to a gospel centered, not a moralistic message.

mike said...

Frank couldn't get us to criticize about him over at his blog, so he did it to himself here.


if only we perfect ones teach, it will probably be very quiet on this rock.

as for the post itself, outside of the Westboro folks and their reprehensible ilk, most of the church in America have jumped this fence years ago. We often would hesitate to speak ill of Lucifer his-own-self. This blog and many others have placed a significant amount of effort into calling for discernment, and honesty, and while I can’t say for sure that lives have improved, the opportunity certainly is being presented.
Sometime when we dress up like a piñata, we desperately need some guy to take the stick and lovingly whack us, in hopes that we repent before God himself handles our bidness.

Craig and Heather said...

Frank Turk:

While I am not fully aware of the extent of the chastening you have received, I think it should be encouraging to all of your readers. By that I mean both that you have received correction and that you are willing to say so.

My husband often reminds me that God's loving hand of discipline is one continued assurance that believers indeed belong to Him. Those of us who feel as though we have "arrived" have reason to fear.

And you have forgotten the exhortation which He speaks with you, as with sons, "My sons, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor faint while being corrected by Him.
For whom the Lord loves, He disciplines, and whips every son whom He receives."
If you endure discipline, God is dealing with you as with sons; for who is the son whom a father does not discipline?
But if you are without discipline, of which all have become sharers, then you are bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12:5-8

Being one who suffers terribly from foot-in-mouth syndrome, I have had to learn that the fires of persecution are not the only means of purification of God's people.

Sometimes He uses the flaming heat of humiliation.

Our church leaders are in a difficult position and bear a much heavier load than most of us will ever imagine. Truth cannot be compromised yet every word we utter is to be tempered by God's love. We all often fail to meet the two qualifications because of our human pride. And those who have been led into public ministry have their flaws magnified for the whole world to see.

May God bless you, sir as He continues to teach and perfect you so you more closely resemble our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heather

Craig and Heather said...
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Craig and Heather said...

(trying again)
I know I said on another thread how much of a blessing this blog has been for me. I have to say that I would tend to want to agree with DJP's statement @6:34 AM

Had to say that because I didn't want my previous comment to appear to be a relieved "Well, I am certainly glad God finally got that guy's attention!"

Often, the things that God shows us are things no-one else can see.

Heather

BaseDad said...

Sorry Frank,

I have been reading for about a year now and agree with...

"because a lot of people think we have never done well in this arena. That's obviously not true,"

I just feel like this is one of those -rubber meeets the road- moments as your exposition goes (on the tail end of "this is #2 for the week"), and I guess I wanted to see a more experienced brother do it.

I wanted to see...

"and even be funny, and not have to be churlish and spiteful."

You, having been through it over the years. And me- having the same problem.

Thanks TeamPyro, Frank

stratagem said...

Tim - what you are saying would apply to our interactions with virtually anyone, and I'm not confused about that. But the passage at hand seems to be setting forth some maxim related to how we speak of "leaders," specifically. Don Sands then piped in with how he wouldn't speak evil of BO, as an example. So my question is not how should we speak of any old Tom, Dick, or Harry we happen to meet, but political leaders, specifically. And John the Baptist speaking of Herod came to mind - so, did he err in speaking ill of Herod? Or should we feel free to call out elected leaders on their behaviors and policies?

Phil Johnson said...

For the record, "to speak evil of no one" does not require a non-critical, artificial affability toward false teachers, pseudo-pastors, and serial miscreants in the church who crave preeminence.

In the sense of what this command requires, the apostle John wasn't "speaking evil" of Diotrephes when he pointed out publicly that Diotrephes liked to talk wicked nonsense and always put himself first.

People in these postmodern times tend to think any time you criticize some heretic, you're "speaking evil." But the biblical pattern (from Elijah to Jesus to Paul to John) suggests that it's not wrong--in fact, it's necessary--to call out false teachers and spiritual hoodlums of the type who like to stand on the periphery of evangelical conviction and lob rocks.

Just for the record.

Stuart Wood said...

Frank,

I would be remiss in my Christian duty if I did not say this. Our failings should always point us back to our doctrine. Bad doctrine produces bad fruit. Good doctrine produces good fruit. As to where you have gone wrong, I can only lovingly point you back to a careful reconsideration of the points I labored to show you at the debate blog:

http://q-and-a-blog.blogspot.com/search/label/Limited%20Atonement

Your true friend in Christ,

Stuart

Truth Unites... and Divides said...

Sola Meanie: "I'm churlish, curmudgeonly, and short. Add to that my qualities of cynicism, hyperbole, occasional gaucheness, cantankerousness, obstreperousness, simmering volatility and two jaundiced eyes.

And those are my good days."


What are your bad days like?

And do you have more good days than bad days? I hope so!

DJP said...

You see, Frank? It's because you don't bow the knee to the Lordship of the Mistakes of Martin Luther, and preach the Gospel in precise words never used even once by anyone in Acts!

Do that, and all will be well and perfect, and you'll be well and perfect, just like — well, you know who.

Frank Turk said...

Oh brother.

Frank Turk said...

Hey Dan --

Phil Johnson reads this blog.

Who knew?

:-)

DJP said...

Well, he reads your posts.

(c;

Stuart Wood said...

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." (2 Pet. 1:1-3).

Craig and Heather said...

"Our failings should always point us back to our doctrine".

I thought recognition of our failings is to point us back to repentance and faith in Christ? It appears that is exactly what has happened here and we should be thanking God that He loves us enough to correct those who belong to Him.

H

Chad V. said...

As usual, Heather hits it right on the nose.

Good on ya!

Stuart Wood said...

True doctrine and Christ are one and the same. He is the Word. The Scriptures are nothing more than the Mouth of the Good Shepherd.

Daryl said...

Oh, I get it now...Frank Turk - false prophet...at your service.

Ummm, no. Frank Turk, smart guy with issues. Not unlike the rest of us, come to think of it.

Chad V. said...

I'm not supposed to feed the trolls so.......

DJP said...

We have a special species of self-feeding troll.

David said...

I'm going to be saying "churl" all day.

Chad V. said...

I had to look it up.

David said...

How much Wood would a churl Turk chuck if a churl Turk could chuck Wood?

Larry Geiger said...

Thank you David.
Made my day.

stratagem said...

Phil

Thanks much for responding to my question. That makes a lot more sense to me than most explanations I've heard of this passage.
Strat

Frank Turk said...

Daryl --

I dunno. False Prophets often get million-dollar book deals and can wear Elvis jumpsuits with capes.

I mean: we have to be pragmatic here. Completely practical.

DJP said...

For the last time, my book-deal WAS NOT for a million dollars!

now STOP!

DJP said...

(rereads)

Oh, sorry.

Heh. Nevermind.

Mike Riccardi said...

We have a special species of self-feeding troll.

LOL!

The sober evaluation of such a species has always seemed to me to be 2 Timothy 3:9:

But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.

Stuart Wood said...

Just for the record, my 1 Pet 2:1-3 passage was not specifically directed to Frank, but to a certain mocker (book-dealing merchandiser) who had just again misrepresented the truth. As for Frank, my counsel was that he (and whosover has ears to hear) should really take another close look at that debate blog discussion on limited atonement. Frank and others should readily find there the very key as to what has gone so badly wrong with their faith and works.

DJP said...

I never tire of this. Some trolls, in the very act of harumphing, validate the very thing over which they're harumphing.

You can't buy that kind of QED.

Solameanie said...

TUAD,

Yes, I do have better days. But since I became a Calvinist many moons ago, I have a much clearer sense of who I am uncovered by Christ's redeeming blood. I am ever thankful for God's grace and mercy.

I probably shouldn't have referenced my Calvinism. That might upset some people.

Johnny Dialectic said...

Thanks for this post, Frank.

Daryl said...

The jumpsuit and cape won't work Frank. You need hair for that.

Now if you could wiggle your way into Dan's (book-merchandising mocker that he is) multi-million dollar book deal, now then you'd be someone to pay attention to.

For the record my failings are due to my own sin. Heck, my doctrine of God vis a vis me is perfect. He won't leave me or forsake me (or fail me for that matter), but I still act like he will. I have today in fact...

Greg L.Tegman said...

I too cover my mouth. This is what happens when I do not search the Scriptures daily. I sin with my mouth. If we do have a public official that says or does that which opposes Christ or Law,do we remain "totally" silent. If not,what do we say. Confused.

stratagem said...

Stuart can't be for real, after that last comment. He just has to be an exaggerated character that someone has made up. Probably some fictional bookmonger who's test-marketing the hypothetical character on the unsuspecting...?

Who's going to show up next here, "Elmer Gantry"?

Daryl said...
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Aaron Snell said...

"How much Wood would a churl Turk chuck if a churl Turk could chuck Wood?"

I hate "LOL"s, but now I may be forced to write one. That was brilliant.

Daryl and Pam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg L.Tegman said...

I don't have the scripture verse we are discussing. But, I have a question. To speak evil of someone would mean to slander or to speak falsehood in regard to ones character right?. If we have a leader, say a President of the United States for example. No particular one in mind here, who lacks understanding of what our forefathers meant when they brought up "Despotism" as disqualifier for the presidency as mentioned in The Declaration of Independence, who opens up a tattle tale policy that encourages citizens to report friends,family as well as forcing any other policy or agenda that opposes this "Declaration", are not to speak up in opposition to such things?. My vote is yes.

Rachael Starke said...

Aaron Snell (and David),

I was reading this meta while at the mall letting my daughter play at the play place,

and literally laughed so loud peoople started looking at me funny.

And I just didn't care.

Honestly, with the way the posts (and comments) on this blog soemtimes make me tear up from either conviction or hilarity, the guys need to look into getting a sponsorship from Kleenex or something.

Craig and Heather said...

@ Rachael Starke,

I'm kind of embarrassed to admit, but I actually tried saying "How much Wood..." three times fast.

And I failed

:o(

Stuart Wood said...

2 Chr. 36:16 - But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

Job 12:4 - I am as one mocked of his neighbour... the just upright man is laughed to scorn.

Luke 22:63 - And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.

Acts 2:13 - Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Acts 17:32 - And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked.

Jude 17, 18 - But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Craig and Heather said...

BTW. I was laughing at myself for trying unsuccessfully to recite a tongue twister. Maintaining proper respect for other believers is not an option, in my understanding.

H

Chad V. said...

Whose mocking the at the resurrection of the dead?

Anyone..... Bueller......anyone?

Daryl said...

"Maintaining proper respect for other believers is not an option, in my understanding."

I quite agree Heather, I don't think we should maintain proper respect for other believers either... :)

Rachael Starke said...

I would respectfully suggest that Mr. Wood's inability to recognize David's literary effort for the compact piece of witty genius that it is,

indicates that he perhaps possesses an inordinate amount of respect for himself.

Craig and Heather said...

What!????

Are you MOCKING me?


I guess that does read rather clumsily, doesn't it?

Hopefully, I have not displayed a disrespectful tone toward others here.

Thankfully, God has been able to pry my fingers loose from my sense of self-importance. After all these years, I can finally laugh at me!

Heather

:OD

Craig and Heather said...

I would respectfully suggest that Mr. Wood's inability to recognize David's literary effort...

I kind of thought it was a far less flattering portrayal of Mr. Turk...

H

DJP said...

You know how sometimes you read someone's comments, and you just can't help but think, "Yeah... I'll bet that guy is a lot of fun to be with"?

David said...

Is it I? Is it I?

Jugulum said...

Stuart,

Oh yeah? I'll see your verses and raise you other verses!

"If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler." (1 Peter 4:14-15)

("I am being mocked" !--> "I am suffering for Christ")

donsands said...

"Luke 22:63 - And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him."

Hey Stuart, are you comparing yourself with this verse? Just wondering.

And please, simply share your heart. Scripture is wonderful, and I love the whole Bible, but let me know what you're thinking, if you would.

David said...

BTW, Dan, since we're all repenting of mockery here, I owe you one. I was convicted a little while back of poking my finger in your eye for a number of your "NEXT" posts.

High horses can make for a long fall.

Forgive me.

Stuart Wood said...

If it were only a mockery of my own person, I would gladly bear it, but I am not ignorant of Satan's devices. Behind it all is truly a mockery of God and His Word. And it is not any Word, but the Word of the Gospel, that Word alone by which a man is saved from everlasting damnation. For me to remain silent to such mockery would only be to your own hurt.

David said...

This is rich.

donsands said...

"Behind it all is truly a mockery of God and His Word."

Stuart, you have some big time blind spots my friend.

Phil, Frank, & Dan don't mock God and His Word. They certainly do extol the lord and His Word. Not to mention those who regularly comment at TeamPyro.

We are building one another up in the truth of Scripture, and love my friend.

Why not join us. Our Lord Jesus Christ would surely be honored, glorified, and pleased.

Gisela said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Daryl said...

Jug,

Allow me to bless you if I could...bonehead.

Daryl said...

Heather,

As one who to rarely laughs at himself...I appreciate the struggle, while admitting at the same time, as hard as I find it is to do it, few things make me laugh harder than me...generally.

Except maybe Jugulum.

Mike Riccardi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Craig and Heather said...

As one who to rarely laughs at himself...I appreciate the struggle, while admitting at the same time, as hard as I find it is to do it, few things make me laugh harder than me...generally.

It does get old to always be the recipient of the "Designated Party Pooper" dinner invitation.

H

Mike Riccardi said...

After considering the actual content of the original post, and re-reading Don's most recent comment, I too put my hand over my mouth.

Stuart Wood said...

donsands,

The issue is that if Jesus did not die for all of us, then on what basis do you know with certainty that he died for you personally? This may not seem like much of an issue to you now (with the noisy din of short-sighted affirmations that you now enjoy), but it will be THE ISSUE for you on your death bed (when Satan throws his final fiery darts). I only hope that my feeble efforts to bring this to your attention will then be of eternal benefit to you.

Mike,

Thanks for the thoughts. I am not looking for your or anyone else's approval, but only testifying to the revealed truth of God's Word. I honestly think that you are too young to recognize and appreciate that.

Mike Riccardi said...

Hand over my mouth... hand over my mouth...

bugblaster said...

It's hard to follow the admonishment in the text. It's hard to teach these principles and commands. Because it is impossible to teach them without living them. I can't live them unless I put my hand over my mouth at least 80% of the time.

Because at least 80% of the time my motive and intent fall far far short of the glory of God, and the inevitable outcome will be one of James' forest fires.

And if I have to say or indicate that I'm putting my hand over my mouth, then I'm not quite putting my hand over my mouth.

I'm going to put my hand over my mouth now.

DJP said...

I am making a blog administrator call.

Stuart Wood, here is what your next comment will be.

You ask: "...if Jesus did not die for all of us [by which, in context, you mean every human, ever, without exception, including Judas], then on what basis do you know with certainty that he died for you personally?"

Your next comment that will not be deleted will be a direct answer to this question:

What answer has already been given to you, many times?

Answer that directly, and only, or expect to be deleted from now on out.

Everyone else, no trollbaiting.

Chad V. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Craig and Heather said...

Frank,

Craig here, Heather's not always silent partner. (we use the same profile, and that is confusing to some - sorry)

I have been thinking of this passage along with Romans 12, specifically verse 18, but only in context. Paul has been (in the context) discussing how spiritual gifts will be diverse, and how they are to be exercised. Then he says as much as it depends upon you to be at peace with all men. Keeping in mind that this is in the second person, so the instruction is to me, the reader - I have to let the Holy Spirit work on my brother when he reads it as well.

All that to say, I appreciate the integrity it took to say what you have said in this post publicly.

as much as it depends upon me, and all men - pretty expansive and inclusive. Makes blogging quite a challenge.

even if i put my had over my mouth and type with one hand. . .

:-)

Craig

Susan said...

Wait, Frank, you said "not hardly an example"--did you mean "hardly an example"?

Stuart Wood said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Susan said...

(Sorry, Frank, wasn't trying to pick on you--just happen to notice the double-negative.)

And it was funny that you should thus title your post, because this morning I was reminded (by the Spirit?) while listening to the audio ESV Bible en route to work that I should speak very little to a certain person at work. This person has a habit of sliding negative comments about our superiors into casual conversations when she herself is the one that is clearly at fault. After a while one can clearly see that she does this on purpose. I just have to learn to keep my mouth shut whenever she starts doing that.

Bobby Grow said...

Frank,

What do you think about putting your hand over someone else's mouth; and then putting words (by implication) into that person's mouth? Is this a valid approach to being a Christian?

DJP said...

Interestingly, in Titus 1:11 Paul uses ἐπιστομίζειν [epistomizein], which literally means "to put [a hand?] on the mouth."

DJP said...

Stuart, if you won't even hear the answers you're given over and over to questions you ask over and over, there's no point proceeding. You don't have to agree in order to present an opponent's position accurately; you just have to be humble enough to listen. EVERYBODY can state your position.

You'll remain provisionally banned until you can accurately present the answer you've been repeatedly given.

Willem J. Bronkhorst said...

Just a thought: Perhaps, as in everything else, also in our speech (and especially our criticizing speech) we must make sure that our aim is truly redemptive and be wise as serpents and gentle as doves (not wise as doves and gentle as serpents lest we end up with a strike from a bird-brain).

Frank Turk said...

Bobby --

I think it depends on whether the other person has something informative and useful to say -- which are objective criteria. A person which ignores what others say and simply, stridently carries on with his current evolution of an axe to grind needs someone to put some useful and reasonable words into his mouth (and his head, and his heart).

Have you changed axes (again)? Let us know.

ulfbiggorilla said...

As someone who has disagreed strenuously with all of Team Pyro at one point or another, primarily in regards to da gifts, I found this post to be very interesting.

In fact, since a couple of my brothers have also interacted with the pyro's and had disagreements (one of my brothers debated Frank on his debate blog), we have actually had discussion amongst us regarding the different methods of argumentation used by Phil, Dan, and Frank because we have seen some things that made us wonder if there was a very high level of arrogance there.

To be honest, the more I have read the more I come to the conclusion that team pyro is made up of very humble guys who defend the truth of God's Word with incredible passion and zeal. Not perfectly charitable at all times, but who is?

Frank this post encouraged me to pursue humility in my own life, thanks for the example.

olan strickland said...

Watch how a black preacher, in keeping with godly living, dealt with a former KKK leader.

Thanks to Phil for tweeting this a few days back.

Tim Pauley said...

We can follow Paul's own example as he stood before rulers, confronted them, challenged them, and proclaimed the gospel to them.

Before Felix and Drusilla he reasoned of righteousness, self-control, and judgement.

Before Agrippa, Bernice, and Festus he presented his testimony, boldly proclaimed the resurrection, and challenged them, "I would to God that not lyly ykou but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am-except for these change.

And we know at some point he stood before Caesar himself and can be assured he presented the gospel.

Through it all I believe we see his attitude of submissiveness and gentleness even as he confronted them with their sin and with the gospel. All because he remembered that he was chief of sinners and what Christ had done for him.

Bobby Grow said...

Frank,

Right. Your tactics are really upright. It's interesting, magesteriums only work with the "faithful," once one steps outside the boundaries of what being "faithful" entails; it is encumbant upon said magesterium to label someone (or caricature) heterodox, so the "faithful" will know who they should hear and who they shouldn't. It is easy this way. Not only does this protect the magesterium from being challenged (given their self-proclaimed ability to cut through "the truth" and error); but it also reinforces the "faithful's" belief that the magesterium is indeed that. Since it illustrates, for the faithful, that their "leadership" is indeed standing against truth and error (w/o argument, w/o question); simply because they have asserted their credentials (amongst the faithful) as the Jesuist bearers of truth that they are.

Of course what this all presupposes is that there are the "faithful" (appeal to the people), which then allows the magesterium (appeal to credentials --- given among the people) to make unquestioned pronouncements (like ex cathedra) about apparently heterodox positions (axes to grind) that the "unfaithful" may question the magesterium with.

It's easy to straw man, Frank (axe to grind, I'm rather varied in my arguments, I don't have one axe to grind . . . which btw, the fact that you say I have an axe is only to illustrate the fact that you have an axe to grind [this is circular]).

Peace.

Chad V. said...

Hey Frank, I bet you didn't know you were a magesterium.

Bobby Grow said...

This is plural. I.e. Not just Frank.

It is not honorable, or Christian, Chad, to make statements (e.g. not put one's hand over mouth) about someone; and then not allow (or ban) that person to respond, and at least clarify the context under discussion. This is akin to slander.

But if you're okay with laughing things off like this, Chad; that's between you and the Lord.

Chad V. said...

And calling the Pyro's magesterium is?

Bobby Grow said...

Chad,

They seem to hold this kind of function within their 'sphere' of influence.

When one of theirs (on his personal blog) makes a closing statement about my views --- and frames that in such a way that it casts me in a "certain light;" and then "bans" me from being able to respond at his blog, and thus defend and clarify my positions --- then yes, I would say this is akin to functioning through methods that are magesterium like.

Chad V. said...

Whatever.....

Bobby Grow said...

Expected . . .

Frank Turk said...

How can this possibly be comment #104?

This thread is closed. You people are insane.