26 January 2011

Open Letter to Michael Horton

by Frank Turk

Dear Dr. Horton:

First of all, I am certain that those opening words have already sent some people into apoplexy because let's face it: my open letters have been written to a rogues' gallery of self-identified Christians who are doing serious harm to the name of Christ and the definition of the Gospel, and those people need to repent -- so far. Thus, some people are already grinding their axes and calling out their kin with torches and pitchforks because to write to you in that context is a grievous error. My hope is that I can air what I see as reasonable questions and critiques for you and your cohorts at the White Horse Inn.  My thought is that in the name of doing something necessary and right, I think you have, over time, created something you do not intend.

So to that end, let me thank you for decades of brilliant dialogue and broadcast content regarding true orthodoxy and the centrality of the Gospel as the defining matter of the Christian faith. There are a lot of allegedly-apologetic radio shows and podcasts, but none of them frankly affect as many people as deeply and drastically as the conversation which is known as the White Horse Inn has affected conscientious, conservative people since its first broadcasting 1990. WHI has been talking seriously and soberly about the faith longer than I have been a Christian, so when I come to it I come with respect and admiration.

I have been composing this letter in my head for probably two years now, so I can think of about a dozen ways to enter into what I'd like to bring to you today.  I'll choose a way which seems best: with your own words.

The following is a transcript of the podcast from 01 Jan 2011:

[Starting 25:35]
Mike Horton (MH): The Gospel can't be lived. It's the Law that's lived. We obey the commands that we find in Scripture, we do not—the Gospel is not anything for us to do. The Gospel is an announcement for us to take to the world, and on the basis of that Gospel we do live differently in the world, but that isn't itself the content of the Gospel: it is the effect of the Gospel.

Kim Riddlebarger (KR): I think you made a brilliant point. I know there will be a number of people who will hear us, who are familiar with us, and they'll say to themselves, "well, there they go, they've been on the air two minutes talking about the Great Commission, and they're back to Law and Gospel again!" But your point is absolutely spot-on: we believe the Gospel, we obey the Law—and if you are not clear about that, then you're going to go off on a mission and as you risk, as Jesus warned, making people more fit for Hell than they were before. If you're telling people that the Gospel is doing certain things, acting certain way, behaving in a certain way, then you're just accelerating their demise and decline.

Ken Jones (KJ): One of the Dangers associated with that is, if you talk about "living the Gospel," I think most evangelicals would acknowledge their own short-comings in various areas, so therefore their failure becomes a failure of the Gospel. It becomes the Gospel's failure. What they mean is we live in light of the Gospel, we live because of the Gospel . . .

MH: Rooted and grounded.

KR: . . . but they have to start saying that.

KJ: Yes, they do—they do. And the confusion is that, so that even when my life doesn't match up (which it seldom does—this is the on-going process of sanctification) that's no reflection on the Gospel.

MH: In fact, the Gospel is so great that it is the announcement of the perfect work of Christ which isn't diminished by my fails. It is exactly what I need in my failures, even my failures to live out the implications in response to the Gospel. It even covers my failures to do that! And as longs you have a Gospel that is perfect and complete, because it's about someone else, you can always get back up again after you fall and embrace that Gospel. It puts wind in your sails so that you can take it to the ends of the world even though you are a miserable sinner yourself.

Here's another excerpt from a previous podcast 18 Dec 2010:
[Starts about 20:25]
KR: All I can say is, Lord have mercy upon that person who looks to me to be the Gospel.

Rod Rosenblatt (RR): Right!

MH: You know, I have to say, no matter how you answer, if you're asked the sort of textbook doctrine question, "do you believe you are saved by works or by grace," of course: saved by grace—once you get out of the realm, and you have phrases like, "be the Gospel," "live the Gospel," you have to realize that the very phrase "be the Gospel" or "live the Gospel" is equivalent to "we are saved by works."

And last of all, from that same podcast:
[Starts about 22:00]
MH: Think about the criteria Paul lays out in the pastorals for ministers. I've never seen "relational" in there—and now of course, this is going to sound like "typical" . . .

RR: . . . Reformed and Lutheran . . .

MH: . . . yeah-yeah: you just . . .

RR: . . . don't get it.

MH: 'cause you guys really are the least-relational group we've ever seen on the planet. Now: we have problems in that area, and there are passages in Scripture that talk about hospitality, generosity, and all sorts of things that we need to work on in our traditions. But if you don't have hospitality, and you don't have generosity, and you don't have relationally (whatever that means) you don't have kindness, gentleness, humility—all of those qualities that are so important for inter-personal relationships, you're not healthy, and you don't have a healthy church. If you don't have the preaching of the Gospel, you don't have a church.

Among all the things you say clearly and continuously, these few statements seem to lay out some of the things which, I think, are meant for good and are meant from a right motive -- but say something instead which doesn't turn out as well as one would hope. I wonder if you have put these clear moments together in your analysis for the White Horse Inn's impact on the evangelistic, apologetic, and ecclesiastical environment you have helped create in the last 20 years.

Now: why bring it up? I actually have three reasons.

The first is a general complaint: I think you fellows have taken the right-minded theological distinction "Law and Gospel" too far; you have made all of human life and God's interactions with man into either an imperative or an indicative — missing the point that some things in life (especially in the Christian life, and in Christian theological anthropology) fall under the subjunctive mood.

For example, Hebrews 12:1 says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." Now, I realize that the hortatory subjective is a way to "command one's self" as they say, but let's recognize something here: that kind of command is not external or decreed but in fact internal and voluntary, speaking to a willingness and not merely to submission to some exterior force or authority. Here the writer of Hebrews — someone we must agree is not a pelagian or syncretist or closet Roman Catholic or any sort of denier of the Gospel — really says, "somehow we can relate to the life of faith, and relate to Christ himself, and want to do what the faithful have always done."

There is much to be gained from the Law/Gospel, imperative/indicative distinction in Scripture, but not everything is resolved by it. And one of the things which is not resolved by it is what manner of people the Gospel makes us - which is actually part and parcel of the Good News.

This brings me to my second concern: while you are right that Christ died objectively, the declaration that Christ died for us is actually the Gospel. In that, consider Heb 10 that after the writer extolls the finished work of Christ he says
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water
For this writer, the Gospel results in something more than just a declaration of righteousness: it results in the advantages of declared righteousness. Because in the imperative/indicative view we are either doing what we must or receiving what we are given, you miss that we are also changed in affections and inclinations. That leads to a Gospel which sees fruit as optional.

The kind of church your discussion constantly intimates (and above: explicitly accepts) is a church where the Gospel is made the centerpiece alone on the table. The Gospel is made into something done, but somehow the idea that it is done for us gets neglected — and it becomes something we see, but somehow not look to and rejoice in.

I am sure that stings a little, but often WHI denigrates people who would say in concrete ways that they enjoy the Gospel — that they live for it and by it and through it. Now, I realize that we can't take everyone at their word, but do you really think that, for example, the young fellow who says we have to love people in order to save them from sin really means that there is no reference to Christ on a Cross? It may be true — he may have meant that, and I have dialogued with a lot of people who would say that. But I have met far more who would say they have to "live the Gospel," and after unpacking that with them it turns out that they mean something a lot more like Hebrews 11:13-16 than something like the power of positive thinking. They mean to live as if the Gospel is true.

Now: Pastor Jones and Dr. Riddlebarger certainly make that clarification in the podcasts I transcripted here — that is, that people ought to find a better way to say that if that's what they mean. Maybe that's true — maybe what they're saying is a lot sloppier than 1 John 1:7, but maybe not: maybe what is in fact going on is that sometimes us smart people want everyone to be as keen on systematics as we are — forgetting that systematics are a kind of legalism if they are taken too far.

I think that Jesus didn't want to make us into people who knew everything about Him and then buried it in our library because he is a hard man who reaps where he did not sow. He wanted — that is, he wants — us to be people who will sweep the whole house to find a lost penny, and people who will buy the whole plot of land even thought the treasure is only in part of it. That is: we will live because the Gospel is true — there is good news not just apart from us but for our sake. It changes the world from "You must not" or "you must" to "I shall" and "let us."

Now, again: in the above podcast transcripts, I think you get it almost right: you say there are "consequences" to the Gospel. But they are not just likely or possible: they are necessary consequences of the Gospel. That is: the Gospel is not actually present if these things are not working out. They may not be perfected and completely worked out, but they are necessarily present. That highlight of being in Christ is in John's letters, and evident in what Paul called the fruit of the Spirit right there in Galatians. This is who you will be if the Gospel is for you and the Spirit is in you.

So to this end, I think you guys allow for a lot of fruitlessness by default — and it comes across in the culture of the people who listen to you a lot and are disaffected by their local church. They don't see it the way John saw it: they see it as wanting "basic Christianity" to want the Gospel — the perfect Gospel, perfectly declared — with a willingness to bypass fellowship (including the sacraments) to get it, usually via podcasts and books.

That brings me to my last point, which lands in my backyard and for which I usually take a lot of flack: this culture is the culture of the discernment blogosphere, and I think you guys need to own up to your contribution there in order to help clean it up.



Because you probably have never read anything by me before, let me lay all of this complaint out plainly so that you can grasp what I mean. What I am not talking about is people who are doing the legitimate work of elders who are accountable in their local churches, who are usually elders, and who display openness and transparency about their character and ministry by not hiding behind an alias or an internet nickname. What I am talking about is the avalanche of people who populate the internet via discussion boards, blogs, and social media who frequently demonstrate all the love and real compassion of a rock through one's window. They are people who, on paper, make a sound confession of faith, down to the mint and the cumin, and wouldn't know what to do if their Hindu neighbor invited them to a birthday party on Sunday morning — or how to turn the other cheek in order to make a foothold for the opportunity to share the Gospel. They usually don't attend church because they can't find one which is up to their doctrine snuff, and the reason is that they have made themselves into a private magisterium. They have never said or written anything for which they would apologize or reconsider because they have never been wrong.

You have seen some of them, I am sure. The reason I am suggesting that they are somehow an effect you ought to own a little is that they speak in the theological idioms of the White Horse Inn. They are very keen on the Law/Gospel distinction to a fault; they are very keen on needing a new reformation; an obsession with the "5 Solas". Because they are bad emulations of your good example, I suggest you should speak to them for a while to help them come around.

See: in that last excerpt, when you say that it's only "unhealthy" to have none of the fruit of the Spirit if you have a pure Gospel, you give this sort of "christianity" a free pass. You give this kind of faith the endorsement James only gives to the faith which saves — a faith which matures under trial rather than hunkering down and bunkering up, and which turns a brother away from sin rather than branding him a heretic on the first pass.

It is the open belief that one can be an "unhealthy Christian," when one is in fact flying in the face of 1 John 4:11-12 (among other passages), that is evident among the listeners to WHI: as long as I have a comprehensive understanding of Christ's transaction for sinners which leaves the sinner with nothing but grace, I'm a decent disciple. I can humbly count myself saved (passive voice, indicative mood). And they learned it from 4 very bright and winsome men who also, to some extent, believe it.

I usually try to shut it down after 3 pages, and I'm up to 6 now so let me conclude briefly: after 20 years, I think we can safely say that we know what we ought to believe, and why we ought to believe it. But I think we have a problem now that is foundational: what does it mean to "believe"? Does it mean that we can recite the catechism — or is that related to belief in the way that the instructions for a Lego kit are related to the final toy, fully constructed? Does it mean we only know about something (an objective fact in history no less), or that we are actually now in that story? Does it mean Christ's wounds are evident to us — or that we are now, for the sake of the church and those called to it but not yet in, to suffer personally to fill up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions?

I ask because I think you are my brother in Christ, and I think these problems are not small problems. And I also think you're not one to see them as small. I believe you when you say you are concerned for the health of the church, and I am with you. However, I think God's prescription for what ails us is the whole Gospel, the whole great and good news, and the whole kit of necessary effects Christ brings to us.

Whether you respond or not, I close in admiration of you and your years of faithfulness, and I hope this letter finds you in God's good graces.







298 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 298 of 298
ecrosstexas (Eric Wallace) said...

Frank,

I want to better understand your differences with Horton/WHI. What is your take on this paragraph (last on page 155) of Horton's Gospel Driven Life as he outlines Good News producing good works and the balance between justification and sanctification?

Truth Unites... and Divides said...

"Sorry TUAD -- ask that question someplace else. I may give it a weekend extra slot this weekend because I think that discussion would be useful."

Thanks Frank.

I hear ya.

God bless both you and Michael Horton.

FX Turk said...

Eric --

I have absolutely no differences with the reference you cited. My problem is not that Michael Horton is a heretic. My concern is that, week after week on WHI, the view espoused on pg. 155 of GDL is minimized, or mitigated, or frankly caricatured for the sake of making people with unsystematized beliefs into people who thinks works earn righteousness.

And in that, to avoid being like them, the WHI crew are willing to say that failing to manifest the fruit of the spirit is merely "unhealthy".

That is my concern -- not that their theology is some kind of new invention, but that they way they convey what they say they believe is lop-sided, and causes others to be extraordinarily lop-sided.

FX Turk said...

TUAD --

Thanks. I promise to come back to it, especially since you're being a good sport about it.

FX Turk said...

Back into meetings.

I fear what will be here when I come back.

Tom Chantry said...

Two quick thoughts:

1. Since I uttered the dreaded word "antinomianism" on this thread, it seems that everyone in the history of the Reformed faith has been called an antinomian. Here's what I said:

I know that the WHI guys would all agree with that theological explanation of the gospel, and probably also with the necessity of faith and repentance. But their dogged insistence on defining the gospel solely in terms of its historical content has rendered much Reformed preaching anemic and powerless. It is part of a broader problem within modern Presbyterianism having to do with the nature of gospel preaching, and it runs the risk of becoming a functional antinomianism.

So, for what it's worth, I didn't all anyone an antinomian. I said that unbalanced preaching runs the risk of becoming functional antinomianism. In other words, it could happen that such preaching will produce something in the pew that acts a lot like antinomianism, even if "antinomian" would be an unfair characterization of the doctrine of the church.

I heartily agree with all that Frank has said on that topic in my absence: The danger of the WHI approach is not that they are antinomians per se (I know Horton is not), but that they are unbalanced, and their lack of balance can produce a whole host of functional antinomians.

The line of the meta so far, in that it makes the point of the original post so well:

It's too bad I have to work today. Charlie is going to be a handful because he is convinced that the Gospel isn;t good news for us -- it's just an announcement.

Dr. Horton: take note.


2. Charlie said he was going about a quarter of the way through this meta. Apparently when he goes, he goes and goes and goes and . . .

jbboren said...

When I first read the original post, I was a bit tentative about the whole thing, as I like Horton and WHI. I could see Frank's points, but I didn't really think they were as much a problem as Frank intimated.

Then this fellow, Charlie, jumped in, and gave living, walking, talking empirical proof that the problems Frank spoke of were real, living, walking, talking, problems.

Frank, I don't think you could have paid a grad student to do as good a job supporting your thesis as Charlie did. Providence?

Cathy M. said...

(snicker) Did A&R just play the "like ministry" card?
http://centuri0n.blogspot.com/2006/08/like-ministry.html

See? I do pay attention. :-)

timb said...

Thanks Frank. I appreciate the clarification and plain statements of some of the last few comments and responses.

Interestedly, some similar things were said at CT, the charge antinomianism is not a badge of honor but something to be refuted. Towards the end "Paul distinguishes between gospel indicative and imperatives, but never allows us to think they do not go hand-in-hand."

Jay Miklovic said...

Whether this is right or wrong of WHI, I don't know, but it seems that they are convinced that if they put the Gospel indicatives in their proper place, the imperatives will take care of themselves.

The statement that Frank makes regarding WHI teaching that sums the letter seems to be:

"That leads to a Gospel which sees fruit as optional."

That may be a true assessment, but undoubtedly this is not a new critique to them. In fact can hear them answering this critique almost every week on the program. They simply think the answer to fruitlessness is to give more Gospel.

They presuppose the Gospel to produce fruit and do not see the need to exhort listeners to bear fruit. IMHO their presupposition is right, but their conclusion to neglect exhortation to fruitfulness misses the mark a bit.

FX Turk said...

jbboren --

What they intended for, um, whatever it is they intended, God intended for Good.

FX Turk said...

Jay --

That's a brilliant insight, and I think it has merit.

Robert said...

I think Charlie is just one end of the problem. The other end is that people will assume the Gospel instead of exhorting people, as Jay has said. I may be wrong about this, but I think this is what Jesus was getting at when He said that we should count the cost of following Him.

donsands said...

"exhortation to fruitfulness"

How does that look?

You need to be more gentle, kind, and patient, so go and be kinder and gentler.

I don't know, I think Horton and Truk are a lot closer than it seems.

Loved to have Michael interview Frank for Modern Reformation Magazine. That would be superb. I sahll pray for that.

Robert said...

Don,

What do think Paul was doing in Galatians 5:22-26? Was he not encouraging/exhorting believers to walk by the Spirit in order to manifest the fruits of the Spirit?

Terry Rayburn said...

Frank,

"For the record, I eschew the view that the WCF teaches that there is baptismal regeneration. There's a nuance missing in saying that it does, and I'm not going there today. Sorry Terry!"

No apology necessary, since I didn't even IMPLY that the WCF teaches baptismal regeneration!

What quote of mine might you be talking about?

FX Turk said...

That would be PPV only, and I'll bet one of us would walk out, a la Schuller.

Not really, but wouldn't that be blogopsheric-legendary?

FX Turk said...

Terry --

I thought you were the one on the other page poking Charlie. If it's not you, I withdraw the reference.

Terry Rayburn said...

Frank,

I WAS poking Charlie, but as a confessional Anglican who does indeed think baptism necessary to salvation.

I quoted The 39 Articles (Anglican) and The Irish Articles of 1615 which Charlie subscribes to.

Jugulum said...

Re: Jay's insight

Titus 2 is appropos, in case anyone really does think the way Jay was saying, i.e. "They presuppose the Gospel to produce fruit and do not see the need to exhort listeners to bear fruit."

ecrosstexas (Eric Wallace) said...

Thanks Frank. It seems too bad that

"That is my concern -- not that their theology is some kind of new invention, but that they way they convey what they say they believe is lop-sided, and causes others to be extraordinarily lop-sided."

has become so lost in all these comments.

Matthew said...

Re: "They presuppose the Gospel to produce fruit and do not see the need to exhort listeners to bear fruit."

I think that the Gospel will only produce fruit in the lives of believers when it is followed by the kind exhortations of the third use of the Law. What Christ has done for us, and our new identity in him, provides the ground and motivation for us to obey the exhortations of God's law. If there are no exhortations to obedience, then all the motivation will not help. So there needs to be exhortations to bear fruit, but those exhortations must be grounded in the Gospel, so that they can produce fruit.

Stefan Ewing said...

Wow, 220 comments!

I haven't even read the article yet. It'll be up to 500 by then, no doubt.

Kudos to you, Frank, for having the mettle to write Open Letters to all comers, not just the ones we like to dislike.

Anonymous said...

Frank,you said

I think that these good and faithful men don't see how their infrequent balancing of Gospel indicatives with the necessary consequences of those indicatives leads people to believe that they don't have to do anything but affirm the right confession/catechism.

I know you're not crazy about revivalists, but that brings to mind a sound indictment brought by Paris Reidhead in a very famous sermon of his (Ten Shekels and a Shirt):

...And so it wasn't long until it got to our generation, where the whole plan of salvation was to give intellectual assent to a few statements of doctrine. And a person was considered a Christian because he could say "Ah hah" at four or five places that he was asked. If he knew where to say "Ah hah", someone would pat him on the back, shake his hand, smile broadly, and say "Brother, you're saved!" So it had gotten down to the place where salvation was nothing more than an assent to a scheme or a formula, and the end of this was that salvation was the happiness of man because humanism had penetrated.

Same game, different field.

Jay Miklovic said...

Jugulum- Titus 2:11-15 is the perfect passage to bring into the conversation, especially the concluding verse Titus 2:15.

1. "Declare these things" (indicative)... this is what WHI is wonderful at doing.

2. "Exhort and Rebuke with all authority"... this is what seems to lack.

The primary rebuke WHI gives is the rebuking those who do not declare the indicatives. And the primary exhortation is and exhortation to declare indicatives. Imperatives seem completely removed from the equation.

BTW, I am a fan of WHI, and coming from a Wesleyan context where the confusion of Law and Gospel is VERY problematic they are a breath of fresh air to me. However one can go so far as to make EVERY issue one of Law and Gospel, and exhortation gets neglected altogether.

Jim Crigler said...

Seriously:

1. I've been listening to WHI regularly for a few years.

2. I think Frank is spot on.

3. I find Frank's post personally convicting.

Otherwise:

1. This comment thread has been as much fun as the Ascol/AirGun debate from a few years ago.

2. In all my years of TV viewing, I've never paid for a pay channel or a PPV program. This would be the first.

3. Somebody needs to intercept Charlie's wife on her way to the Sculley Square station and give her a nickel to give him when she's taking him his sandwich.

Josh said...

Though I read consistently I rarely comment because I am intimidated by the depth of knowledge of many who post here but I needed to say something about this one.

I am a pastor who discovered the doctrines of grace while pastoring. That was about 6 years ago. Since then I have been devouring as much as I can on the doctrines of grace.

My ministry is within a Baptist church that was completely unaware of the doctrines of grace. Many of the comments relate to the theoretical side of the law/gospel issue, but the letter I read by Frank had much more to do with taking ownership for what we create.

This is a very personal issue for me because I am currently teaching our people the doctrines of grace. This is an earth shaking, soul searching time in their lives.

Being the only doctrines of grace preacher in town I have attracted some of the "hardcore" calvinists who have gotten repeatedly frustrated with me because they are always getting mad at people when they make imprecise comments about theology, and think that they ought to be corrected in an uncharitable manner or often say "are they really saved?"

This is extremely hurtful to me (not in a personal sense, but in the sense of a loss of love between brethren) because I too did not know these things but someone was patient with me, taught me these things and let me wrestle through them without ever accusing me of being a heretic.

This is no theoretical problem - thank you for this post. It encouraged me to keep teaching the doctrines of grace to people who don't speak the theological lingo, but are worth my time because God has called me to love them and shepherd them.

Josh

Anonymous said...

Charlie said:

"Frank, I understand that you have no clue what the Reformed Confessions teach since you're a Baptist and do not believe the "bind the conscience". For what it's worth you demonstrate clearly to me why no one should be a Baptist of any kind."

Insert song "Can you feel the love tonight..."

I've notified my pastor that I shall be leaving our church now because it's so obvious that all Baptist shall burn in...er...nevermind.

Thanks for the post Frank!

Jon said...

Frank, good post and the comments by Mr. Ray have brought up exactly the "type" that can be created by an over emphasis on Law/Gospel teaching.

Mr. Ray is almost an exact copy of a gentleman I've followed and slightly interacted with on YouTube. This "RedBeetle" likes to be the heresy hunter and has developed his own sort of legalism of "perfect theological knowledge of Justification".

As we have seen, brick walls are hard to talk to and almost impossible to receive anything, but a cut/paste of some catechism or writing of Calvin/Luther/Non-Baptist.

I hope that Michael Horton will respond in some way and I'm sure if he does that it will be filled with the grace of your open letter to him has.

Robert said...

Josh,

Have you read "Foundations of Grace", by Steve Lawson? It is a wonderful book that shows how the doctrines of grace are demonstrated in every book of the Bible. It is the first of a five-volume set, but I'm not sure when he's going to have the time to write the others.

James Swan said...

Frank,

One question. Do any of the WHI statements that bother you contradict any of the confessions of faith the WHI guys ascribe to?

donsands said...

"...fruits of the Spirit?" Robert

"love, joy peace, gentleness, godliness, righteousness, temperance, kindness, goddness, etc."

I don't think we can be exhorted to bear fruit.
"To walk in the Spirit, as you said is what we need to be encouraged to do."

Jesus said, "A good father will never give a scorpian to a son who asks for an egg. How much more will your Ftaher in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask."(quoted from memory)

Actually it is the Holy Spirit who helps us ask for the Holy Spirit to fill us, and to fill us with His wisom and power, and shed His love throughout our heart, and so we then bear fruit for our Father, and He is honored, pleased, and glorified.

Jesus said in John 15: "You can do nothing without me."
And he also said, "Ask me anything you desire, and I will do it through you."

I think that's what I am still learning, and will forever be learning as I seek His kingdom first, along with His righteousness first. I live by grace upon grace, which helps me trust in His grace and love, and in the Gospel of Christ, our Savor and God.

FX Turk said...

TQ!

I would say there's no contradiction per se, especially for brother Rosenblatt. I would say it is a matter of emphasis, and a matter of showing how soteriology instigates the whole Christian life.

i think they minimize, not deny, the the necessary consequences of the Gospel.

Richard said...

I became a Baptist half-way through Charlie's first six posts. Where did he go? Somewhere I cannot?

Eric said...

Frank,

Well written piece. I have noticed some of the same tendencies and talked about them with my pastor and fellow elders, since we sponsor local broadcast of WHI. I hope that Dr. Horton is willing to interact with this critique and take it to heart - many people may benefit from it. In many ways, I think the unbalance may be due to the pendulum effect, and it's probably time for that pendulum to be centered more.

Thanks for your willingness to interact thoughtfully in the comments - your heart for discipling is especially evident here.

Tom Chantry,

I always appreciate your contributions to the comment section, finding your responses loving, logically coherent, and very balanced. I never thought I would see the day when your Christianity would be questioned by a commenter here - absolutely amazing. How odd when juxtaposed against DJP's post and the comments of yesterday.

Tom Chantry said...

Eric,

Thank you; I'm not sure I've always lived up to your kind words. I didn't comment here for a year - mainly because I found myself growing strident in tone.

(n.b. - I do not think it is terribly helpful to regulate the "tone" of others, but it is good to regulate our own.)

As for Sam's remark - I laughed at the very same juxtaposition as you. Yesterday's post was titled, "Who is a Christian? Open Question? Or Settled?" And low and behold, today it was settled. If you say that a gospel message ought to contain "a declaration of the historical facts of Christ’s death and resurrection, an explanation of why - that He died for the sins of others and rose to grant eternal life, and a challenge to respond in repentance and faith," - you, sir, are no Christian!

Jay Miklovic said...

Regarding whether the WHI hosts are consistent with their confessions Frank said:

"I would say there's no contradiction per se, especially for brother Rosenblatt."

This is a good point. While Horton certainly drives show, and 'Dad Rod' is the quietest of the four, a careful listening makes it clear that Rosenblatt is driving WHI's theology and emphasis. WHI as a show is very much a confessional Lutheran conversation sans sacraments.

It almost seems like Rosenblatt only jumps in when the other guys begin to stray at all from Luther.

Solameanie said...
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Solameanie said...

Oops. I didn't see that the comments carried over beyond 201 into another page. I repent of my 201 boast in sackcloth and ashes.

Anonymous said...

Terry Rayburn wrote:
>>Frank,
I believe that your post is well-written, but it's written sort of esoterically.
That is, for someone like me, who has only dipped an occasional toe in the WHI/Horton pool, it remains unclear, even after trying to squeeze out the gist of it by reading over 100 comments.
Would it be possible to capsulize what Horton is actually doing in his Law/Gospel distinction?
Specifically, do you consider him in any way antinomian, as you've been accused, or legalistic (these are so polar apart that I feel a little Twilight Zone-ish for not already knowing your answer)?<<

Terry, you've echoed my comment (#4)! The comments (I've only read 150 or so, and am fast approaching burnout) have helped a little, but I still feel as though I'm missing something - that this boils down to a nitpick over semantics, and that the entire issue is moot for those of us who don't listen to WHI.

Solameanie said...

Wow. Joel (me) don't comment anymore before reading the whole meta, and take remedial reading while you're at it.

Terry, just so I am clear, are you saying that YOU think baptism is necessary for salvation? If so, I disagree, but that's another subject for another time.

Griffin Gulledge said...

I would like to hear Biblical justification for Charlie smugness, berating, and constant inappropriate use of the smiley face.

Charlie, there's a huge difference in loving the doctrines of God, and loving God himself. One displays itself in love for others. The doctrines can, but only with true love for God. Your, quite frankly, pharisaical manner of response to everyone here- questioning the salvation of others and berating them with confessions and books of prayer that you obviously hold to be self-evidently inerrant as well is disgusting. I know that I am in need of repentance. You say that you are- act like it.

If you notice, in the Bible,when prominent figures disagree, they say their piece. Jesus said his, then was silent before the judge. Stephen gave a great speech, then was silent. A constant defense of you position and an arrogant berating of those who differ is sinful, and it MUST stop.

From a Reformed Baptist who loves all Christians, even those who disagree, please- move on. I'm saying this in love. Of course, you don't think I'm a Christian anyway because I'm baptist right? I'm part of the dominion of Satan- the baptist denomination. May gave have mercy on your soul, and our ears.

Stefan Ewing said...
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Stefan Ewing said...

Okay, all caught up on the post and the comments. Missed a spectacle while it was unfolding, and just as well, as it would have got me all worked up.

I am only very superficially acquainted with work of the good folks at White Horse Inn. Over all, their Law/Gospel distinction is a helpful corrective against the very human, very universal tendency to always drift into works righteousness. MovingOn touched on this in a very poignant way, in a much earlier comment.

And Dr. Rosenblatt's article The Gospel for Those Broken by the Church is very good stuff that every Christian would do well to read or listen to at least once: even those of us who by God's grace and providence have never been broken by our churches.

I haven't listened nearly enough to their radio programs to become acquainted with the culture and issues that underlie the concerns raised in the original post or touched on in some of the comments.

But I have seen the effect of taking a similar reductionistic approach to the role of works in my own walk with Christ. I learned the doctrines of grace very soon after I was saved (and in fact was exposed to them even beforehand), but was so zealous in my embrace of them that I applied them equally to both justification and sanctification, and figured that if I tried too heard to bear fruit myself, I'd be falling into works righteousness. I took a passive approach to sanctification, but as a consequence, stumbled and crawled when I should have been learning to walk.

It was the late, great Michael Spencer who twigged me on to something critical. It was in his concern over how the WHI guys had dealt with the Sermon on the Mount one day (law, baby: all law), and in chasing through comments on Michael's blog, that I was led to the "Third Use of the Law," a concept that had thitherto completely escaped me.

The Law condemns us and drives us to Christ; but for us Christians redeemed by the blood of Christ, it also instructs us, and the indwelling Spirit gives us the desire to follow the Law as a guide, not out of fear for failing to keep it (for we can never do that perfectly anyhow), but out of love for God and our neighbour. The Great Commandment, the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and the spirit of the Old Covenant as fulfilled in Christ's sealing of the New Covenant and engraved upon our hearts—this is all what the Third Use of the Law is about.

It is in living out the Law engraved upon our hearts that we bear the fruit the Apostles exhort us to bear over and over again. And it goes without saying, that all of this flows from God's salvation of us in Christ. There is no sanctification without justification, there is no justification without the sovereign work of God...and there is no sanctification without the sovereign work of God, as it is worked out in our lives.

Anyhow, while the Law/Gospel distinction is of vital importance (in this wretched sinner's humble opinion), the Third Use of the Law is as well; before I got that, I didn't "get" sanctification, and it's critical to understand the proper role of the Law in the lives of us redeemed sinners: not as a tool of legalism—nor yet to abandoned antinomianistically—but as a guide and a tutor, as we learn to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

And Frank, may we see more from you like this. While it may be entertaining to jump in on the Open Letters to folks who aren't on the same page as us, it is that much more helpful and challenging for all of us to work through the issues when they're with people whose teaching and ministry we generally admire and respect.

Phil said...

Frank,
As someone who was helped tremendously out of liberalism by Horton's formula (and therefore a Horton fan) I have thought about what you are saying and I think it's a very good point.
But it's long. Way too long- my eyes began to cross and glaze over, I looked to the comments to save me.
In fact, there were 3 comments you made for clarification that perfectly captured your point much more concisely. FYI. I suppose you should get back to troll patrol now.

FX Turk said...

Anyone who mistakes me for not-a-fan of WHI and Mike Horton hasn't read this open letter.

And my word verification is "liker", so there.

FX Turk said...

Phil --

If I had posted the shorter version, the amount of spite to be hurled at me for not giving examples and sufficient Bible would have been entertaining but unwieldy.

Sir Brass said...

Tom, I agree very much so, and it is part of what I see as a thoughtful Reformed Baptist (even though neither DJP nor Frank are confessionally adherers to the 1689) critique of movements within reformed paedobaptistic groups.

The Gospel is a proclamation, but the effects of the gospel are anything but merely academic. The preaching of the gospel is God's means for saving His elect. It brings about change. Not by our own efforts, but there IS change, like Frank was saying.

So thus we CAN legitimately say to those who profess to be Christian: trust and obey the commandments of our LORD and Savior, Jesus Christ. It's not that He's Lord (law) before conversion and Savior (grace) after conversion. He is Lord before and after conversion, and our Savior always if we are of the elect (oops, there's that dreaded L [or P] word: Limited [Particular] Atonement).

FX Turk said...

Jesus is the savior of all men, especially of the elect.

FX Turk said...

250

Mike Westfall said...

Well, I don't have time to read through all the comments, but the post was great. Especially the part that pointed out the subjunctive as a third type of statement besides command and indicative. Much of the NT writing makes more sense to me now.

FX Turk said...

Sarcasm kills, Mike.

puritancovenanter said...

Thank You very much Frank Turk. This is a topic I have been discussing on the Puritanboard.com lately. I am posting this link on it.

Greg Gibson said...

Frank, thank you for speaking the truth in love about this topic which is long overdue.

Mike Horton (MH): The Gospel can't be lived. It's the Law that's lived. We obey the commands that we find in Scripture, we do not—the Gospel is not anything for us to do.

“those who do not OBEY THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus” (2 Thes. 1:8).
“those who DISOBEY THE GOSPEL of God?” (1 Pet. 4:17).
“we are proclaiming GOOD NEWS to you that you should TURN from these worthless things to the living God” (Acts 14:15). http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/2002Law.htm

Frank: but often WHI denigrates people who would say in concrete ways that they enjoy the Gospel — that they live for it and by it and through it.
Kim Riddlebarger (KR): we believe the Gospel, we obey the Law—and if you are not clear about that, then you're going to go off on a mission and as you risk, as Jesus warned, making people more fit for Hell than they were before.


John Frame: It has become increasingly common in Reformed circles, as it has long been in Lutheran circles, to say that the distinction between law and gospel is the key to sound theology, even to say that to differ with certain traditional formulations of this distinction is to deny the gospel itself…The sharp distinction between law and gospel is becoming popular in Reformed, as well as Lutheran circles. It is the view of Westminster Seminary California, Modern Reformation magazine, and the White Horse Inn radio broadcast. The leaders of these organizations are very insistent that theirs is the only biblical view of the matter. One has recently claimed that people who hold a different view repudiate the Reformation and even deny the gospel itself…I believe that we should stand with the Scriptures against this tradition. http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/2002Law.htm http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/2009Horton.htm

The first time I heard the claim that the whole Bible can be divided into either law or gospel, I thought, “That sounds simplistic and reductionistic.”

When was the law-gospel distinction invented, the 16th century? If so, how could 15 centuries of Christians be ignorant of this gospel truth? Why did God not reveal this Bible key explicitly (instead of implicitly, as they claim?)

Westminster Seminary West continues to spread sectarianism, dividing Christ’s Body. I hope Frank’s article will call them to repentance.

SolaMommy said...

I would just like to give a hearty "Amen!" to your description of "the culture of the discernment blogosphere," Frank. I was, unfortunately, in that club for a while and it was something I read on here not long ago that made the lightbulb go on. I have distanced myself from much of it at this point and now I am sure that was a wise choice.

Terry Rayburn said...

Solameanie,

You wrote:

"Terry, just so I am clear, are you saying that YOU think baptism is necessary for salvation?"

Absolutely not.

The Seeking Disciple said...

Wow that was fun to read. For once I enjoyed reading Calvinists debating Calvinists and yet I was on the side of the majority of the Calvinists here who argue for salvation (justification) that leads to sanctification.

Thanks for the fun reading!

Rachael Starke said...

Well, I raised my eyebrows when I snuck a peek at who this letter was to before heading to women's Bible study.

Then I gasped out loud when I sat down after lunch to read the whole thing, and saw the comments already over the two hundred mark. I gave up on the comments mid-Charlie and his (apparently) Evil Angels, but this piece actually informed my thoughts as I was talking with my girls during family worship time at dinner, and prayed with one soft-hearted girl who's "prayed the prayer" at least three times now. I'm not sure why you thought this would cause anathemas to rain down on you - I've experienced the fruit of this lack of balance with many friends , and even family, in the OPC, who to all day WC seminars and homeschooling conventions up the wazoo, but don't see the slightest need to intentionally win a lost relative to Christ, or understand why we ought to be loving and gracious to stressed-out waiters when our food is late, instead of rude.

Thanks.

Sir Brass said...

"Jesus is the savior of all men, especially of the elect."

Agreed, but do you think you could expound on that? :)

Some would take that statement to me that the elect are only a subset of the people for whom Christ is their savior, which is to understand "especially" in a way different than those who originally wrote that statement meant it (centuries of time can do that to a language).

That is NOT to say that the gospel shouldn't be preached to all men, for it should. It should also not be taken to somehow insinuate that we can't make a genuine offer, because due to God's means, the offer itself is true with how God works in men's hearts to bring them to repentance.

Darn, here I go trying to make a good, one line agreement, and I get all technically again. NUTS :P

Rob said...

I think I read a Dr. Seuss book once called Horton heard a hortatory subjective...
;)

Esther said...

This has been the most entertaining meta I have ever read here at teampyro...

That's not to say that others have not been more entertaining...just that I haven't read them. Yet.

I laughed out loud at the comment referencing the song concerning Charlie: the thing is, if his wife took the nickel and passed it to him through the window with the sandwich, he would either return, or be saved by his own works.

And neither of those scenarios is desireable...

wv: "upleni", as in "upleni smart, Frank".

Anonymous said...

In regards to the quotes listed from the podcast about not being able to live or obey the gospel...how does 2 Thessalonians 1:8 relate?

Anonymous said...

In regards to the quotes listed from the podcast about not being able to live or obey the gospel...how does 2 Thessalonians 1:8 relate?

Anonymous said...

The take away for me from all this (as I'm not Horton, this letter wasnt' really meant for me but I can learn from it) is an understanding of your little video you did recently with a bunch of emergent types (if I recall correctly). Live like you actually believe Jesus Christ is real. I recall watching that video and thinking, "duh." Time has passed, ODM's have loudly and publically divided, and I cannot cling to these ministries alone to feed my soul any more than I could have clung to all those marriage and self help books in the small group of the former church those ODM's managed to lead me out of. I am happy to be free, happy to learn and glean what I can from ODM's, respect and love what they are trying to do. But my end all be all as a Chrsitian mom is not their final word on who is Christian enough or who is right. My life is about Christ and teaching my children about Him and what He has done for us. And also teaching them how they should live. And there is freedom in Christ, yes, and there is still a way to live, a wise way. So I just have to use these teachers works as tools but not parrot them mindlessly.

And to that you can say, "duh."

Shaun RW Little said...

That letter was solid bro.

-Shaun Little

Stryker4570 said...

Frank,
The fruits of the Spirit are gifts from God to those in whom He has created faith through His word. Unless your works are born of this fruit, and have their basis and motivation from this fruit in your life, your works are no more than religious moralism. Commanding believers to grow the fruit of the Spirit in their lives is like telling someone they should grow taller, or that they should grow more hair on their head. They may need to do both, but in themselves are unable to accomplish either thing. It is the Word implanted (James) that creates faith and nurtures the Fruit of the Spirit. Hence the Reformation admonition of 'word and sacrament' is nothing more than pointing people back to the means by which God creates and bestows these gifts.
To preach about works and tell people they need to be more 'loving' or 'gentle' does nothing to impart those qualities to them. A good preacher will reference these things as what true faith looks like and does, but 10 steps to this or that, or barn burning harangues about Christian morality won't change anything. The church is literally awash in that stuff, in some quarters for centuries, and what has it really done?

Anonymous said...

Frank,

You’re probably snoring your head off as I’m posting this, and I’m not even sure if comment # 267 will even hit your radar, though I hope it does.

To begin with, I believe I owe you an apology because I underestimated your commitment to this project (as you may remember my ‘ornamental’ comments (as you called it, in the open letter to Pat Robertson meta). I thought this was going to be a series of hit and runs on easy and wimpy targets. The fact that you’re wiling to engage someone like Horton says a lot about your integrity too. So Frank FWIW Sorry!

Some observations if I may:

I devoured Horton’s Christless Christianity during my spiritual rehab period. As much as I enjoyed it however, there was an obvious bent in the book on the law-gospel overemphasis and the works righteousness paranoia. Since then I had some unfortunate cyber encounters with Lutherans and became a regular listener of Lutheran extraordinaire Chris Rosebrough’s podcasts. I enjoy Chris’s podcasts for the most part, but have grown weary of his visceral antipathy to anything ‘law’ or ‘imperative’ oriented. I’m beginning to suspect that words like ‘obedience’ and ‘holiness’ give him a rash. While law is acknowledged, it is nonetheless treated as a second grade issue. I think Jay Miklovic epitomized my sentiments better than I ever could when he said: They presuppose the Gospel to produce fruit and do not see the need to exhort listeners to bear fruit. Touché

I have also noticed that this bias inevitably introduces a reticence to declare and preach ‘the whole counsel of God’. It seems that they are stuck in first gear in their soteriology.

‘Confusing law and gospel’ to some Lutherans, is a hermeneutical breach of the highest order. Whatever your error (it seems) it’s because you confuse L&G. To Charlie J Ray in the earlier thread, it seems akin to a Moslem eating pork!

And speaking of Charlie…

I object in the strongest terms any criticism leveled against him, as he provided great entertainment value and his passion for monotony needs to be applauded! Performing the legendary Lutheran choreography en pointe was a sight to behold.

I wanted to close my nocturnal diatribe with a newsflash for Charlie, namely, that millions of non-scholarly Christians around the globe can still rejoice in the God of their salvation and manage to get by, without the luxury of the fine tuning diagnostics of the law-gospel distinctions. Unthinkable, I know!

Frank summed it up well with this comment: …making people with unsystematized beliefs into people who think works earn righteousness.

Tom Chantry said...

Commanding believers to grow the fruit of the Spirit in their lives is like telling someone they should grow taller, or that they should grow more hair on their head.

Do you really believe that? And if you do, can your canon be any broader than Galatians? If you believe that we must never command believers in this area, then we cannot tell them to love one another (as per I John 4:7), or to be joyful (as per Philippians 4:4), or to live at peace (as per Romans 12:18), or to exercise patience (as per James 5:7). . . do you really need references for the rest of the fruit?

“Word and Sacrament” as it is intoned by the functional antinomians within contemporary Presbyterianism is a gross misnomer for their system - one in which great swaths of the Word either may not be preached or must be twisted out of all recognition. The oddest aspect of this movement is that it employs argumentation out of the Arminian playbook:

They may need to do both, but in themselves are unable to accomplish either thing.

No one here disagrees with that, but the implication (made very overtly by some) is that we would be disingenuous to command anyone to do what they cannot do. Because, you know, God would never tell someone to do something that he isn’t capable of doing, and neither should we. In this manner “preaching” becomes a recitation of fact without any urging - either to obey or to believe. After all:

It is the Word implanted (James) that creates faith and nurtures the Fruit of the Spirit.

So it is all so simple. We do not preach as the apostles did, commanding all men to repent and believe and knowing that only by the ministry of the Spirit will they do so, because (unlike Peter and Paul) we are afraid of creating a false impression that human effort saves.

The theology of hermeneutics is far less simplistic and requires a genuine comprehension of biblical soteriology. But then, it’s easier to paint a straw-man of applicatory preaching:

A good preacher will reference these things as what true faith looks like and does, but 10 steps to this or that, or barn burning harangues about Christian morality won't change anything.

Because, you know, the whole history of applicatory preaching may be summed up with reference to a few miserable trends in the last few decades: application can only take the form of raving fundamentalistic diatribes or silly self-help seminars. No one has ever done it any other way.

I hope people are still reading at this point. If they only encounter Charlie in this meta they may doubt his reality. If I hadn’t tussled with him here before I would suspect he was an alter ego invented by Frank specifically for this post. But I’ve met Pat (or people who talk exactly like him) many, many times. In fact, I wonder if he and I didn’t graduate from the same seminary. He is frighteningly genuine, and if he is a preacher, I cannot see how his congregation would differ from one pastored by Zane Hodges.

trogdor said...

Tuesday we learned that if you believe a good tree bears good fruit, you are guilty of trying to usurp the prerogative of divine adjudication and blah de blah de blah.

Yesterday we learned that if you believe a good tree bears good fruit, you are promoting justification by works, and you're a closet Catholic or - gasp!- an anabaptist!

I can hardly wait to see what DJP has in store for us today. I just hope it's not anything about faith actually affecting your life, because I don't think we can take one more day of heretical drivel like that.

FX Turk said...

There is this crazy thing that somehow "word and sacrament" is not legalism, but "love one another" is legalism.

I'm glad Chantry pointed it out - I meant to, and never got to it.

DJP said...

Trogdor: I can hardly wait to see what DJP has in store for us today

Something Completely Different, Trog.

Tom Chantry said...

Sorry, but I messed up my last comment grossly. It was meant to read:

"The theology of homiletics is far less simplistic and requires a genuine comprehension of biblical soteriology."

But then, homiletic is the child of hermeneutic, so perhaps my comment made sense after all. It's what I get posting at 6:00 AM.

Jim Crigler said...

Esther: Touché

d4v34x said...

And here I thought it would be more fun to read the craziness Glenn Beck defenders would post.

Silly me.

JackW said...

I would think that if you wanted to exhort people to bear fruit, that you would exhort them to abide in the Vine, not stick rotten fruit onto dead branches.

Tom Chantry said...

Jack,

Your point? Your comment is a bit too pithy to make it clear what you are saying. Are you implying that anyone who preaches I John 4:7 and says that Christians have an obligation in Christ to be loving is attempting to stick rotten fruit on a dead branch?

JackW said...

@Tom, I guess that would depend on if he was preaching 1 John 4:7 in context. There’s a lot of abidin’ going on there.

Robert said...

Jack,

I think you are splitting hairs. Any responsible preacher is going to tell people of their responsibilities to walk in a manner worthy of their calling, but that the only way to do so is by the power of the Holy Spirit working in us. I am not saying that there are not pragmatic pastors and churches out there, but we can not ignore the call to walk in the manner worthy of our calling. We need to maintain that balance between our responsibilties and working under the power/guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Tom Chantry said...

So here's my question:

John teaches that only when we abide in Christ will we know love. He also urges believers to love one another. May we preach both, together? Or are the proclamation of the necessity of abiding in Christ and the command to demonstrate that love mutually exclusive?

Pat's comment above insinuated the impossibility of preaching the way that John wrote; if ever you tell the congregation to grow in love, you are implying that they must do so in their own flesh. Is that your contention also, or is it possible to make application within the matrix of a Christ-centered theology?

FX Turk said...

What?! We can preach that the Gospel has necessary consequences -- that Christ died for us, so let us cast off sin?!

It's incredible!

FX Turk said...

I'm shutting her down someplace around 300 comments, kids, so get your licks in.

Mr. Fosi said...

Detoxed Pentecostal,

I listen to Rosebrough as well and I credit his constant harping on what the gospel is and how it is distinct from the law with freeing me from my very confused and legalistic, United Methodist flavored spirituality. I've also recently been listening to a lot of WHI and picking up some of the same fare, albeit with a wider perspective.

I know exactly what you mean by your critique and it's one that I somewhat agree with. Did you listen to the Jan 17th, 2011 edition of Fighting for the Faith? He cleared the air a bit in that episode but that won't do much in the long term to rectify his bent.

To be fair to Chris, F4F is a tool with a relatively fine focus. He is targeting only a few different segments of broader "christianity" label. The law that he is targeting is usually not the divine but the man-made sort, though he often fails to state this clearly. Also, having himself been delivered from the Nazarene church, I can understand his hunger and emphasis of the gospel over the law.

Even so, having experienced some very prodigious growth over the last 2-3 years, I am coming to the place that what Frank called the "subjunctive mood" is starting to pop out at me during my Bible reading. Hearing Chris and the guys on WHI hasn't really prepared me to address these passages, but it needs to be done.

Not easy to do when I am also struggling with the roles of divine sovereignty/human will and out what baptism and the Lord's supper are about. I am glad that the Lord has promised to complete His work in me so I don't have to feel the full burden.

JackW said...

@Tom, I think I answered each and every one of your question.

Blessings with or without splitting hair,
Jack

Tom Chantry said...

Respectfully, Jack, I don't think you answered any of them. And I don't believe the WHI are prone to answer them either.

Which is how we wind up with preachers who are convinced that while they may say, "Christians love one another," they may never say, "Christians, love one another," nor even, "Christians, let us love one another," lest someone mistakenly take their application to be fleshly legalism.

And that is what I mean by "functional antinomianism."

donsands said...

"May we preach both, together?" -Tom C.

Yes.

Jesus says, "...apart from Me you can do nothing." Then He says, "“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

In fact, a bit earlier Jesus says to His disciples, just after His last supper, and after He had washed their feet: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. BY THIS all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

So, there is no doubt whatsoever, we are commanded to love. Many people will say you can't command love. Well, our Lord takes a different stand.

But, can we love one another?

If I said to my Savior, "Lord I can't love this one guy. He drives me nuts."
The Lord says, "I must love him. I must care for him, and try to get along."
For by our love, not our Bible studies, nor our whorshipping together, nor our fellowship dinners, but by our love for one another ALL people will know we are Christians.

But I can't do it, without Christ in me.

Yet by faith, and in the Holy Spirit I am able to love others, even people that hate me.I asked our Father to give me, and fill me, with His Holy Spirit today, so that I might live this day for Him; in His grace and love.

Good discussion. It's a difficult teaching, this, because we all have different personalities, and God has given us different "bents", as it were.
But this is by His sovereign choosing.

Tom Chantry said...

Very well said, Don. And yes, it's difficult, but not impossible, is it? We just need to avoid oversimplifying by pounding one side of the issue to the detriment of the other.

JackW said...

Ok Tom, assume that I agree with you instead of assuming that I disagree with you and assume that my first post was not in response to you instead of assuming that it was and you’ll see that I answered your question/s.

All I was saying is that the main thing in producing fruit is abiding in the Vine and not the other way around.

I tried to do so in fewer words, but failed. Sorry, forgive me.

Tom Chantry said...

Sorry, Jack. I just read your initial comment with those assumptions, and I do indeed see it now. Your analogy was similar to one the Word-and-Sacrament crowd uses, but not quite the same. I apologize for misreading it.

Mike said...

Dear Frank,

I have been a fan of pyro blog for some time and you and Dan specifically. Your presentation on the Nines was a real highpoint. I must say though that I am disappointed in the tone of the comments not only between you and Charlie but specifically Dan's cutting and petty retorts. Who knew you guys were capable of this? It's incredibly hard to try and convince people of your theological prowess when all they have to do is scroll down enough to see this. Is this really necessary?

Solameanie said...

Terry, thanks, and apologies. I was fairly confident that you didn't based on past posts, but the one in question seemed a little vague. In retrospect, it must be the residual effects of antihistamines on me.

Have a great day.

Anonymous said...

This whole thing shows we all have a thing or two to learn as Christians. Leaders who know and have studied can still make errors despite being firm as Christians, despite being excellent teachers. Somehow, despite all the knowledge, books, writings, podcasts, speeches, blogs, sermons, seminaries, despite all this there are five year olds who trust Christ and are learning and growing. Ahhh...to be five again with simple faith. Yet, we must live with ourselves, we must learn, we must grow. Salvation, so simple a child can be given it's gift, so difficult a blog like this can make well studied men and women pick and pick to find all its nuance. I am in awe of the richness of it all.

Unknown said...

Quickly, if you just go off of what these men say on the radio show, you are spot on, even handed, and gracious. If you went off of what these men have put into print, I think you would have no open letter to write on these points.

It is the nature of the medium to take wide swings at softballs, sit back and admire how far the ball went, and the players on the field get little or no attention. I am sure these men stand by the words they say but in private conversation they would clarify their nuance. For most listeners (like me), it took months to remember which term meant what between indicative and imperative although I knew the basic point. Just imagine if they injected subjunctive into the mix; I would still be scratching my head. But, when I read these things (as in an open letter), I pick up on them quite easy.


To me, it's the medium that makes this letter what it is rather than what they would tell you over a cup of coffee.

FX Turk said...

Brett --

I think that's a funny way to see this, for two reasons:

1. One of the key matters for the conversation which is WHI is that the church is messed up, and it needs to get un-messed up. In that, they say you should "Know what you believe and why you believe it." Fair enough: demonstrate the clarity you require of others.

2. Why be unbalanced in the more popular medium and fair and consistent in the less- popular medium? See: I have said clearly, repeatedly that Dr. Horton & crew by no means ascribe to a lopsided Gospel. I'll bet Dr. Kiddlebarger's church is a hot-house for the fruit of the spirit, right? I do not for one second believe that they are antinomians or "let go and let God" types because those beliefs are patently anti-reformational.

The problem remains: their broadcasts have a particular bent, and it does produce particular fruit (cf. Charlie, yes?). What is the right course of action when this is the evidence?

FX Turk said...

BTW, a wildly-useful example of what I am talking about here is (since his name came up earlier) Dr. James White. You absolutely could never catch him expressing a doctrine of the Gospel which disjoins holiness from justification -- and forgives a lack of holiness as merely "unhealthy".

Tom Chantry said...

But, Frank, he's an Anabaptist! He's by no means Reformed! Why do you use him as an example?

Sir Brass said...

Frank,

You know, I think if Charlie, et al, are right, then Jesus preaches works-righteousness!

I mean, after all, he commanded the sinful woman to, "Go and sin no more!" I mean, it's right there!

Shocker!

*tongue firmly implanted in cheek*

And yes, amen, to what you said about Dr. White. And just as much from his co-elder, Pastor Don Fry. Some sermons, you WILL get your ears blistered, and be edified for the reminder.

FX Turk said...

OK - we're done here.

If anyone needs to contact me about this post, please e-mail frank [at] iturk dot com.

John D. Chitty said...

Tom Chantry wrote:

"I would contend that there is no gospel message without three elements: 1. a declaration of the historical facts of Christ’s death and resurrection, 2. an explanation of why - that He died for the sins of others and rose to grant eternal life, and 3. a challenge to respond in repentance and faith."

I have two observations to make that may betray the fact that what we've got here is a tempest in a teapot. I recall hearing Sproul a number of times give the above formulation in definition of the Gospel to the hosts of the WHI without receiving any nitpicking about point 3.

Yes, I agree that technically the challenge to believe is not the news of what Christ did for us, and by definition is not the gospel, but it is the answer to "Now that I've heard the gospel, what must I do to be saved?"

Rod, with unanimous approval of the rest of his co-hosts, has criticized his denomination for sometimes being scared to tell people to believe. He has said a number of times over the years that even if the presentation of the gospel itself leaves something to be desired, go ahead and tell them to believe, then straighten out the theology later! And I would daresay that all of the WHI hosts would be willing to affirm that since the Gospel is for Christians, too, then that means that Christ's blood covers the imperfect preaching of the gospel by his redeemed preachers.

Boy, sometimes I get jealous of you big bloggers with your hundreds of hits per comment thread, then I reflect on all the hair-pulling that goes on in the execution thereof!

Have fun counting your comments ;-)

"I'm from Geneva, and I'm here to help!"

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