...submits?*
Now, I can't imagine one Biblical Christian married man answering that with a "No!" Particularly the men I've known whose wives are critical, undermining, emasculating, faultfinding, and/or shaming (Proverbs 12:4; 14:1). They'd all choke up and say "Are you nuts? I'd think I'd died and gone to Heaven!"
Well, really, though? Are you sure? Have you thought this one all the way through?
Equally, when a husband refuses to love his wife like Christ loves the church and care for her spiritual and physical wellbeing as in Ephesians 5:25f. and the like, he's sinning, he needs to repent, and nobody should enable or give cover to his rebellion against God.
His sin doesn't make her sin OK; and her sin doesn't make his sin OK. These are marriage-related truths that are too seldom said, heard, and practiced. (See also HERE.)
HSAT: let's suppose your wife isn't a model of submission. Let's suppose she hasn't put together that her marital vows meant that she was giving up to God the "right" to fight you — ever — to tear you down and disrespect and emasculate you. Let's suppose she hasn't accepted in faith that God calls her to support and strengthen and help you, win you over so that you unhesitatingly trust her from the heart (Proverbs 31:11).
You feel sorry for yourself. Don't lie; you do. You tell God so, too. You walk a difficult path. Your kids, who hear your wife tear you down, don't know how hard it is. You don't hear anything (exactly) about your situation in sermons or books. Insofar as any books come close to it, they just tell you it's all your fault anyway, and if you'd just give your wife her way even more, learn from her and become more... more... well, more feminine, everything'd be great.
Or they (again) say it's all your fault, and if you were just the godly man you should be — as they presumably are — and just lead (like "On three! One... two...."), your wife would just snap into place like a Lego piece. If she isn't where she should be, it's all your fault. By some magic unhinted-at in the Bible, you control her behavior, and wives are exceptions to the principle of Ezekiel 18:1-4.
Somehow, you feel there's got to be a better way.
But then a genuine miracle happens — not the kind that involves gold dust, white teeth, or gibbering and barking, but the kind that makes angels sing and brings glory to God. The Spirit of God opens your wife's eyes, she sees what the Word has been saying all along, she repents of her sin, and she begins chasing after God's revealed will with all her might.
Suddenly, you have on your hands a loving, happy, positive, respectful and supportive wife.
Are you ready for that? Really?
Think of what has changed now:
- It's all really-really on you now. To open that up a bit...
- Any pretense you ever felt you had for defaulting or abdicating is all gone now. To open that up a bit...
- You may genuinely have accepted your role in your marital problems, but inwardly you always had "but after all what can I do, married to a woman like this?" That's all gone now. All eyes turn to you. You don't even have the appearance of the excuse you thought you had. It's all you. What are you going to do?
- You'd better deliver. Are you ready to deliver? Are you like a minority-party politician, sniping at the party in power, going on and on about what better ideas you have and what a better job you'd do — and, now once you find yourself in power, it's a whole different ballpark, and you see that the market-value for talk remains a goose-egg?
- And if it all ends up in the ditch, you will have driven it there. Are you ready for that rap? Are you ready to be a man and shoulder the blame? Are you ready not to have any excuses, any buck-passing, any notes-from-Mom excusing you from manning-up and taking it squarely?
- What's more, you are now the buffer, the shield, for that woman. Maybe for months, years or decades she kept defying God's purposes, refusing to subordinate herself to you, and caught all sorts of grief for it from God's world. But now she's positioned with you as her head, her shield, her protection. You don't hide behind her as an excuse or as a person. She hides behind you, and rightly so. Are you man enough for that? Are you ready to be her hero, her knight, her champion, her protector? Did your heart stir as mine did at the story of the men at the Tucson shooting who threw themselves between the murderer's bullets and their wives? Men like seventy-six year old Dorwan Stoddard, who pulled his wife down and died shielding her with his body? Those were men being men, I tell you. Are you ready for that role?
- The wellbeing of that precious, vulnerable, trusting woman is right smack on your shoulders, under God. She said "No" to every other man in the world — many of whom, just 'twixt us two, are vastly superior to you and me in every way — and said "Yes" to you. Are you at least a half-decent guy? Do you take that role, that place, seriously? Will you rise to it, now that the shackles and hobbles are off? Well, sport, what are you going to do about it now? Bat's in your hands, your shoes are on the plate, the pitcher's winding up, here comes the ball. What are you going to do, Bub? It's all you. What are you going to do?
Suddenly the grass on the other side of that fence isn't as green as you were thinking, is it?
Well no, it probably still looks terrific, if you're in a difficult situation. That's always the case: doing and being aren't at all the same things as dreaming and imagining.
But if we here at Pyro can't take folks to reality, at least we'll try to play it on a nice big screen with surround-sound.
The point here is: just like the woman loudly wishing her husband would lead, similarly the man lamenting his unsubmissive wife may not be all he appears. He may have grown comfortable with the "out" that he feels his situation gives him. He may like being mothered, even if Mama gets cranky once in a while. He may have lazily adapted to the contour of the "pass" he thinks he has from stepping up and being the point-man. He may be acclimatized to the lowered profile, the lowered expectations, the lower responsibilities.
And he may get some nice sick pleasure from the sympathies of his friends. He may not fully want to be healed.
But give that wife a dose of Spirit-born repentance, and all that changes. Maybe you think he had a legitimate reason for underperforming, maybe you don't. Either way, even the pretenses of excuses are all gone now, and it's all on him.
Not so fun as it looked from a distance?
Maybe not.
But it is your God-given role, amigo.
Don't blow it.
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* In all this, I assume the usual: "submission"/"subordination" is limited by the word of God. No man or woman has a right to order another either to do something God forbids, or not to do something God commands.
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* In all this, I assume the usual: "submission"/"subordination" is limited by the word of God. No man or woman has a right to order another either to do something God forbids, or not to do something God commands.
46 comments:
This discussion will assume you've read this post and comments. Or at least my opening comment in the meta.
I'm blessed to have a wife who does submit, but also does give valuable input into the decisions that I make. And God has humbled me many times so that I would realize that my wife knows much more in some areas than I do. I make decisions and sometimes she tells me that she told me so, and I need to hear that so that maybe next time, I will listen more attentively to her advice.
I personally like the feeling that I get to take the hits that come our way because I am thankful to be able to protect my family...it is one of the more meaningful ways that my love is manifested towards her and our children.
That said, I have much to learn and I need to be more bold in making decisions to help us grow. Making the hard decision to leave our church of four years might help in the regard, though. I have already seen the fruits of that decision in all of our family.
Not, perhaps, an ideal model.
(c;
I think that cartoon hit both ways lol
By the way, I was tempted to write that you should think about having this discussion over a cup of coffee with all of us guys before calling us all out like this 8o)
Thank you so much for a convicting post, at least for me! I constantly struggle as a wife with how I treat my husband. I tend to think I can teach him the proper way for everything, and when things aren't done as I think they should be, I tend to rebuke him almost as a child. I'm ashamed, but grateful that God is showing me my sin, as I hope it is a sign of coming repentance and victory over this sin.
I wish more people spoke on this topic. I know it's taboo, because of feminism, but it shouldn't be that way in the church. Even in the 'Bible belt', this is hardly taught or practiced. I know that in my own life just learning that I had to be obedient to these passages, and seeking to submit to my husband has made him love me more like Christ loves the church.
Thanking God for the wisdom and teaching gifts that He has granted to you all at Teampyro, and for the encouragement you give us all each day! Love in Christ!
Hear hear.
Thank you, Sarah. Let me use your gracious response to add a word to wives, under this post addressed to husbands:
Apart from every other reason for believing God's wisdom as to what it means to be a woman/wife, add one more. When you, sister, are fighting and resisting and degrading and unmanning, you are also distracting. That is, his attention is probably greatly absorbed with being on the defensive, with surviving, with trying to figure out how to manufacture moments of peace and happiness here and there.
While he's doing that, he's not thinking about his own sins and failures and shortcomings. The other noise is drowning all that out.
Now to say the should-be obvious: that's no excuse. If someone says something to me that is 98% wrong, and says it in a perfectly horrible way, I'm still obliged to deal with the 2% that's right.
But, HSAT, once all the explosions and strafing-runs and suppressive fire and heavy artillery stops, where does that leave a half-decent Christian husband?
Once he catches his breath and blinks, it leaves him with his own sins and failures now standing out in stark relief.
This all comes free with your Pyro subscription. No extra charge.
Thanks Dan. Christ-like love, servant-hood, and leadership in the family does not come easily -it's hard work. And, of course, that is true of all of our sanctification - we are called to work at it. If I don't work at it, surely I am doomed to fail. And when I do work at it, under my own strength I am still doomed to fail. BUT, thanks be to God that He has promised and sent the Holy Spirit to work in my sinful members the fruit of the Spirit.
There's no doubt that this has been a forceful and edifying week in Pyroland.
This great post reads like a page from my life. For the first couple years of marriage my wife refused to submit. She was defiant and obstinate in every way. I lamented and mourned and pointed the finger of blame at her during marriage counseling and in my small group.
Then one day she did a 180 degree shift. By the grace of God she completely changed into a wonderful, respectful, submissive, and supporting wife. I was totally unprepared. All the time I was complaining that she wouldn't let me lead, I never thought to actually learn how to lead.
I guess I didn't really believe that she would change. I was so focused on her faults that I didn't take care of my own responsibilities.
The earlier post, apron of humility/walking worthy being studied in Ephesians, this one, other reads from pillar to post ~ very grateful for God's mirror, mirror, on the wall♥
God bless you gents for minding His business ~
Thanks, DJ, for the "you're not just making this up" word.
(c:
I am blessed with a wife who submits, but isn't a door mat.
My failing is that I too often run from what you've said here, Dan. Mostly because I don't want to lead, partly because I'm generally too lazy to learn how to lead my wife honourably.
Some of these questions are challenges I've become familiar with. The first major decision that I made for both of us was terribly nerve-racking and required huge amounts of prayer, because the risks were very great, if it turned out to be the wrong decision.
As it happened, God heard our prayers, and He worked things providentially for our good and for His glory, so that the decision turned out to be one that helped to transform our marriage—and not so much by what I or she did, but what God did through the means He ordained.
But over all, this post does cut pretty close to the bone. And some of these questions have broad applicability to all areas of life, as they touch on our character. As I've grown in Christ, I've had to work through some of these questions in a number of spheres, not just marriage.
Dan, I'm glad you're handling the husband side of things as well as you did the wife's side of things. However,
"But it is your God-given role, amigo.
Don't blow it"
I got the same sense from the previous one on wives. "Oh, no, It's all my fault. This is an insurmountable task at which I will never succeed."
What do you say to the man who has failed already? Here again I read this and felt a lump in my throat, and a sense of hopelessness. The husband also needs the gospel as well as the wife. It's ultimately about forgiveness, without which none of this matters anyway. The one who knows forgiveness in Christ knows what it means to forgive that spouse who is imperfect. Tell us about forgiveness in Christ, tell us about how HE dealt with his bride. Tell us how ungrateful that bride is in the face of such perfect love. That will take us (men and women, husbands and wives) all down equally. The husband needs to see that whatever his wife has done to him, he has done the same, and worse, to Christ... and does daily. And the wife must see that same thing. No matter what irritating or cruel thing that the husband does to her, she has done and continues to do the same to Christ. Even in our regenerate state we still insult him daily (per Romans 7) with our imperfections and sins. Maybe we only slap him in the face rather than whip him with a cat o' nine tails, but we still do not love him as we ought. And that by itself is bad enough to condemn us all to the same just and eternal fate.
Then give us the good news of forgiveness in Christ, the love that covers a multitude of sins, whether it be unsubmissiveness, contentiousness, cowardice, selfishness, or whatever.
What's is that saying... (I think I remember Ken Jones paraphrasing it once on White Horse Inn) When you want to inspire works, you don't preach works, you preach faith. That means you give them the law and then the *gospel.* I need that gospel, especially in my marriage and family, where the person/people we love so much also have this very unique talent for bringing out the worst in us.
Luther on Good Works:
"To preach faith (it has been said) is to prevent good works; but if a man should posses the strength of all men united, or even of all creatures,[2] this sole obligation of living in faith would be a task too great for him ever to accomplish. If I say to a sick man: ‘Be well, and thou shalt have the use of thy limbs,’ will any one say that I forbid him to use his limbs? Must not health precede labour? It is the same when we preach faith: it should go before works, in order that the works themselves should exist."
And I will respond exactly I did on the other meta:
I think it has to be possible to call any Christian, man or woman, to repent and show love for Christ by keeping His commandments, without the "legalism" card being played.
Otherwise that's a pretty snappy trump card for any unwelcome commandment, isn't it? And (while we're talking cards) it means I get to hand in my "slave" card, and call for Christ's "Lord" card to be turned in as well, doe
@Eric "And, of course, that is true of all of our sanctification - we are called to work at it. If I don't work at it, surely I am doomed to fail. And when I do work at it, under my own strength I am still doomed to fail. BUT, thanks be to God that He has promised and sent the Holy Spirit to work in my sinful members the fruit of the Spirit.
I find the more I plan out my own sanctification the more screwed up I get. In effect here you are saying you work at your own sanctification (and then you rightly say you don't). I don't see how that is any different than a Rick Warren sermon giving us pointers on how to become more sanctified. I fail at my own sanctification, frankly. But maybe I'm a more stubborn and clueless horse than you.
:-)
No, it's Eric affirming Jesus' word to us through the apostles. Find me ONE apostle saying "Do this -- but of course you can't and never will, but you know I have to say this stuff, and I'm really not asking that you even seek God's grace to try, because we all know that's a pointless waste of time. Don't mind me."
If I may add 2 cents as a single guy who looks forward to marriage someday, one of my biggest regrets is not getting into a relationship with a woman I knew in the early 90s.
Her attitude towards me was that she admired my walk with Christ and appreciated my desire to walk more closely with Him, she looked to me for advice and she sought Christ vigorously on her own.
Her attitude toward me effortlessly made me want and need to be a better Christian and a better man because I knew that if we were together she would accept my leadership.
It was a scary feeling, yet I know that it is what I do want to feel from my wife.
I highly recommend Doug Wilson's book, 'The Federal Husband'. It helped put things in a Biblical perspective for me, that what quite a contrast from the culteral, social standards of our time.
Dan, thanks for helping terriergal see that I was merely trying to echo Scripture.
Terriergal,
I did not say that I do not work at my sanctification, but I rather said that I fail if I rely on my own strength in that endeavor. The Bible clearly calls us to fight against sin and to work toward greater holiness, righteousness, and obedience. That is the work of working at sanctification. It is synergistic, not monergistic.
Thank you so much for the additional words of wisdom! I pray that God would keep me from being a distraction that keeps my husband from not only seeing his own sins, but worse for me, that keeps him from being able to focus on being the spiritual leader in our home. I ask that you all would pray for myself, as well as other Christian wives who are struggling in the area of complete submission to God and thereby to their husbands. May God grant us repentance and restore the institution of biblical marriage for our good and His glory! Thanks again :)
Sarah, it all comes down to whether we really, really will trust and obey, doesn't it? Almost 38 years on this road, and I keep having to learn that one over and over and over and over....
Terriergal:
Sanctification is work. The work doesn't save us, and it also doesn't give us brownie points for being "good Christians."
It is a synergistic work between us redeemed sinners and our Holy, just, loving, and righteous God, founded on the person and work of Christ, and working especially in us through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
We cannot do it perfectly, and we (all of us) to stumble in sin every single day. And so we must turn back to the Cross of Christ every single day—not in penance or to earn God's favour, but to seek and rely upon His grace.
I took the passive approach to sanctificiation for several years, thinking that working at it would be works righteousness and legalism. I figured I had all the doctrine right, and that was the most important thing. I was waiting for some magical, mythical moment, when I would just wake up and it would all come naturally, and I would be sanctified (more or less).
As it happens, it's taken God to lead me through trials of testing and disciplining to force me to grow in Christ and grow in my walk with Christ, and learn that it is a synergistic effort. If I do it on my own, that's the sin of self-reliance; but He won't let us just sit back on our posteriors, either.
I still sin every day (given the way in which Jesus Christ showed us how practically everything we do is tainted by sin, in His Sermon on the Mount), but I'm convicted daily and growing daily, by His grace.
P.S.: The "secret" for me was simply developing a more diligent prayer life. Not by praying longer or more ornate prayers, nor by praying down a laundry list of needs (although we are to bring our needs and those of others before God), but by simply going to the mercy seat, and regularly repenting for my sins on the basis of the blood of Jesus Christ.
I agree with you in the sense that it is out of the endless, superabundant fount of God's forgiveness, His grace and mercy, His covenantal love—all secured by Jesus Christ—that flows our sanctification.
"If I ever marry again I will hew an obedient wife out of stone."
Said by?
Whenever I read about the topic of submissive women/leading husbands in the church, it always makes me wonder why the church isn't a sea of women wearing head-coverings on any given Sunday as an outward sign of submission to their husbands?
This is an instruction of the Apostle Paul in I Cor. 11 tied back to the Creation order, right? So wouldn't this be considered a genuine expression of submission of a wife to a husband seen exercised in the church body? Or is it just easier to contextually dismiss this one because its inconvenient and "you don't have to be submissive to that particular instruction if you don't want to, dear."
Off-topic. But it's probably something to do with the fact that nothing in the Bible says that women should wear veils.
I don't think the text necessarily states that it needs to be a veil, but some sort of covering to the head (veil/shawl/hat/etc). Maybe it is a little off-topic, but at the same time when I read the language of I Cor. 11, particularly sections like v.10 which speak of "a symbol of authority", it seems to correspond with the general topic of what the Bible says specifically about how a woman displays submissive behavior in the church and to her husband.
Dan, you wrote:
No, it's Eric affirming Jesus' word to us through the apostles. Find me ONE apostle saying "Do this -- but of course you can't and never will, but you know I have to say this stuff, and I'm really not asking that you even seek God's grace to try, because we all know that's a pointless waste of time. Don't mind me."
This so put into focus something our former pastor once said about obeying the Mosaic Law: "I keep trying, and failing, to obey the commandments. And I'm going to keep trying and failing to obey them for the rest of my life." He said this in a triumphant way, as if we were to be encouraged by it. Thank God he's our FORMER Pastor. But I pity the people he's preaching to now.
Before my wife and I got married the church we were attending had an influx of young couples getting married. Our pastor made it mandatory those wanting him to conduct their wedding to watch a film series by John MacArthur on marriage.
I'm not sure if it was our pastor or John MacArthur who stated that in order for a man to lead he must have a follower.
While we have pretty much quoted that to one another for the past 18 years, well mostly me quoting that, we have pretty much lived by that. But I have learned that although the locomotive is powered by the front engine, it is the caboose that houses the conductor.
1Peter 3:7
Remember she is a “heir” the same as you. She is as loved by God as you. Christ paid the same price for your salvation as he paid for yours. She has exactly the same status in Christ as you, only with a different role.
So always remember with who’s daughter your messing with. I suspect He is a protective father.
Mark (la Roi):
You said some curious things. You are single. You want to be married. Nearly 20 years ago, (no doubt as a young Christian man) you knew/recognized those virtues you so beautifully described. But "...it was a scary feeling."
You are STILL single?
Brother: get thee a wife! Maybe that one lost her place in line, but there are others, no? The bull pen is no place for the likes of you. :-)
(word verification: messi. Don't you know it!)
Thanks, Dan.
This feels like when I've been afraid to pray for repentance, because I knew that God would grant it to me... and then I'd have to face the consequences of my sins. (I hope that sentence made sense.)
Still working on that. I appreciate the pointer in the Right Direction.
~Mark,
I was where you are, brother. I thank God now that He used that godly young lady to help straighten me out and prepare me for the woman He had prepared for me. And I wouldn't have picked her, but God knew what He was doing and provided a great wife. It will happen in His time.
As for this article, it's amazing the number of women confessing their conviction from the last post versus the lack of men confessing the same on this one. I wonder if poor leadership is a more subversive sin. I know too many marriages where the husband has abdicated leadership in order to avoid weathering responsibility for problems and failures. I can't say the work is always fun, but I spend time and effort studying my wife and employing resources to grow her spiritually and perpetuate the passion in our marriage. However, the results are worth every bit I can put into it.
I hear some men talk and I know that they just don't know what to do. I hear other men talk and can tell that they know what to do, but they simply won't do it. The men who have the happiest marriages I see know what to do, roll up their sleeves and put the work needed in the leadership of their families. I'm not a great leader and I can do this, so I know that every man can.
I'm a production controller in a factory. The position is the number two position in the plant. I run the place when the boss in away. I study processes closely so that I can release orders meaningfully and I study the team leaders so that I know how to get them to accomplish what they need to accomplish. It's no different as a husband in a marriage. There are daily goals, but the ultimate goal is to keep the place running effectively and never close the doors. In a marriage, this means that the focus is on keeping a finely balanced process in our continual relationship, remembering to complete the daily goals along the way.
(And I'll tell you a secret, men: it's a huge myth that she can't be figured out. She can. You just have to go do your homework like you were back in school. Just let her openly keep a certain air of mystery once you get her figured out and you'll do alright.)
"As for this article, it's amazing the number of women confessing their conviction from the last post versus the lack of men confessing the same on this one. I wonder if poor leadership is a more subversive sin."
Perhaps the non-leading men couldn't get permission to post a comment on this one.
Or maybe women just talk more.
Jim - ...it's amazing the number of women confessing their conviction from the last post versus the lack of men confessing the same on this one
I think that's a fair point and a good question. I don't have an answer.
More serious answer: the reason I'm not confessing to anything on this is that inverted roles is not now, nor has it really ever been, an issue in our marriage. My wife is truly an amazing model of what a godly woman should be, and accepting the submission/leadership roles is not a particularly big struggle for us. Since much of the article's thrust is "what will you do if/when you get to lead in your mawwiage?", and my thoughts on that are more how I would advise others I know who seriously struggle with this, I didn't chime in. I don't like commenting when it's about problems those other people have, not about personal conviction.
Now where does conviction come in for me? Questioning the areas that, as I lead our mawwiage, I fall short in. Much more than that are fears about what kind of parent I am - how well will I raise our children? But that's a different article that I'm sure we'll get hammered with soon enough.
For now, I didn't feel the need to chime in about my complaining about our difficult marriage, because frankly it's flat-out awesome.
Come on, Trog. Confess! You'll feel better.
If I can add a twist to this, God uses the most improbable means somehow to do His work.
It was my beloved wife's idea (when we were both non-believers) to start going to our current church.
Being a skeptical agnostic, I was ambivalent about going to an Evangelical church (horrors!), but I decided to go along with her.
Providentially, within a couple of months, our senior pastor started a series on Romans 9 to 11. Being Jewish, I was apprehensive but curious.
Four days after he finished preaching through to 11:36, I confessed Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
I meant, He uses the most improbable means sometimes to do His work.
Brother: get thee a wife! Maybe that one lost her place in line, but there are others, no? The bull pen is no place for the likes of you. :-)
(word verification: messi. Don't you know it!)
Lol! I'm workin' on it!
(And I'll tell you a secret, men: it's a huge myth that she can't be figured out. She can. You just have to go do your homework like you were back in school. Just let her openly keep a certain air of mystery once you get her figured out and you'll do alright.)
So true! Same thing for women who say men can't be figured out. :)
Men can't be figured out!? Us men are far too easily figured out.
Unless you've cultivated that elusive "mystery man" mystique....
@ Rob
I think you may have a point. I think head coverings is an issue that the Church will need to corporately reconsider at some point to avoid being open to the charge of 'pick and choose' Christianity. I can't see it happening until God raises up a 'deliverer for Israel' so to speak.
The treatment of this issue in RBMW is good but perhaps not convincing to many.
In the meanwhile, here in the UK I am aware of several denominations that still practice it:
Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
Free Church Continuing
Brethren
Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster
Strict Baptist (I think)
There may be more but that is what I know of. It has been very interesting to go along to these churches to observe their practice. Being from an Arminian/Charismatic/Egalitarian background myself I have never seen it practised before.
I think R.C. Sproul is the only one amongst the current popular Reformed crew who believes in the practise.
Anyway, an interesting topic we all need to think about...
Submission ? lol! I love my wife and I need Gods forgivness everyday. Being married to a woman 44 yrs., that seems to most pastors we have went to for marital counseling as unsaved.Yes i do feel sorry for myself also. I still keep plowing on like the unequal yoked oxen. Church is tommorrow maybe then she'll be saved
Okay, this post is four months old at the writing of this comment and we're at 45 comments and counting so who knows if anyone will even read this...but...to the author- nothing I've ever read has made me want to learn the art of submission more than this post. (Yes, I have a Bible. That doesn't mean I always understand it.) I read the post for wives as well. They'll be getting a matching set of links on my blog today. Keep up the good work.
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