This is probably too ambitious, and I probably don't have the time.
That rousing beginning uttered: Continusmatics keep recycling the same lame challenges and comebacks and evasions that have already been answered over and over. Though each quip has been killed dead more times than Freddy and Jason combined, they're always pulled out of a hat as if they'd just sprung fresh from Zeus' brow, never heard before, never answered even once (let alone myriad times), and always produced with the invincible air of the Aha.
This happens a lot in Twitter, where I guess I get followers (or non-following drive-bys) who don't know who I am and haven't actually read any of the dozens of articles I've ever written on these subjects. So I've taken simply not to wasting my time on folks who don't "follow" me, because there's no context there, and I've no time to do each lazy challenger's research for him.
So in that all, I've often thought it'd be nice just to be able to give a link, say "Read #47," and be done with it. Create a master post, with as many comebacks and/or links as I can manage, maybe let it grow like the Axioms post, and use it.
HERE ARE THE RULES, AND LO! THEY ARE RULEY-RULES:
- Anyone (who hasn't been banned) can play. Charismatic, non-, apostolic, third-wave, tenth-degree, 49th parallel, second amendment... whatever.
- But the comment must be one sentence long or I will delete it. Comment as many times as warranted, but each comment must be one sentence long, and must be what the next rule says it must be.
- The comment is and must be only something a Charismatic says either to defend, go on offense for, or dodge the implications of his position.
- For examples, see below.
So I'll start it with these examples:
- God still heals.
- The Bible says "earnestly desire to prophesy" (1 Cor. 14:39)
- The Bible says "do not forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39)
- The Bible says "do not despise prophecies" (1 Thess. 5:20)
- The Bible says "do not quench the Spirit" (1 Thess. 5:19)
- No verse says the gifts have ceased.
- No verse says the gifts would cease with the closing of the Canon.
- A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.
- There were prophecies in the Bible that weren't added to Scripture.
- We aren't claiming to write Scripture.
- NT prophecy is different from OT prophecy.
- Saying that prophecy should be tested and sifted (1 Thess. 5:21) and discerned (1 Cor. 14:29) proves it is different from OT prophecy.
- Great Man A had a weird experience that's hard to explain, so the gifts are still around.
- Some Continusmatic wrote an answer to your answer of #___.
197 comments:
There are parts of the world that don't have the Scriptures, so the gifts are needed to prove the truth of the Gospel.
What about the children?
Calvinists have done more to hurt Christianity than Charismatics
You shouldn't put God in a box.
The pharisees didn't like the signs Jesus did either.
Without the sign gifts, our relationship with God is robbed of its power, and we don't thrive.
God changed you through theology and Bible, he changed me through experience.
God changed you through theology and Bible, he changed me through experience.
There is no verse saying the gifts will cease.
New Testament prophets are told to exhort and encourage so clearly prophecy has been redefined.
Where do my gifts come from, if not from God?
These gifts are bearing good fruit in my church, doesn't that prove they're biblical and right?
I Corinthians says Paul was the least of the apostles, not the last.
I know God speaks because He speaks to me everyday.
Deuteronomy 18 only says that an inaccurate prophecy means we shouldn't fear it, not that the guy isn't actually a prophet.
All through Acts people's theology changed because of their experience rather than Bible study, why nto so now?
My pastor, never having heard of tongues, began speaking in tongues the moment he was baptized.
So-and-so began seeing prophetic pictures in her mind the moment she was saved, so it must be for real right?
But Muslims have visions of Jesus telling them the gospel all the time, right?
You have to deal with my obviously God-originated experiences and not just keep arguing from Scripture.
I prophesied over so-and-so and it was accurate.
The Bible nowhere tells us not to seek the gift of apostleship.
Not every prophecy in the OT or NT was recorded in Scripture, so what prophecy today have to do with the sufficiency of Scripture.
The first Apostles laid the foundation of the early church so it makes sense that apostles today should lay the foundation of local churches.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By His stripes we are healed!
My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night said he saw a miracle, so there.
You're just picking the low-hanging fruit and avoiding real mainstream charismatics like Grudem.
There are all sorts of miracles in Africa but not here, because we're too 'enlightened' and don't have faith like them.
You're quenching the Spirit!
The Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 will have miraculous powers, so clearly the gifts didn't cease at the close of the canon.
Shouldn't we follow the wisdom of Gamaliel and wait and see if God's hand is in this or not?
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, so the gifts must still continue.
Paul says to "earnestly desire" greater gifts, especially prophecy (1 Cor 12:31, 14:1.
You're telling me that 500 million believe a false gospel?
(to go along with your #12 above) NT prophecy is different than OT prophecy also because women were allowed to prophecy (1 Cor. 11:5) unlike the OT office.
1 Cor 13:9-10 (8-12?) says tongues and prophecy will last until the perfect comes, that is, until Christ returns and we see him face to face.
1 Cor 1:7 claims that Christians will not lack any gift until Christ is revealed, which must surely include the gifts discussed later in this letter (tongues and prophecy).
Asking for evidence to substantiate claims makes you no different from Hume and the atheists.
(another serious one) If NT prophecy is not "secret knowledge"/"divine revelation" material since we should test it (1 Thess./1 Cor. 14) than what, in your definition, Dan, IS it?
You're a big mean doody-head.
Touch not the Lord's anointed.
Pastor Mark's teleprompter told him to say you're a functional deist.
It's analogous to the Biblical gift, so we should call it by the same name and pretend it's the same thing.
Mark 6:5-6 indicates Jesus couldn't do miracles in Nazareth because the people had no faith, which is why we don't see many in post-Enlightenment societies today.
For cultures entrenched in spirituality (the Hindu, for example) the gifts are necessary to prove the truth of the Gospel to those people.
Why are you so concerned about spiritual gifts when there are people rapping about Jesus?
Sufficiency: you keep using that word...I'm not sure it means what you think it means.
Coughlin - ROFL!
I actually HAVE spoken in unlearned languages.
I am no charismatic or continuationist, but I will throw in a proposition I've seen online: "The same arguments used to refute ongoing miracles today would also refute Biblical miracles."
You just don't have the fullness of the Spirit!
There are things in the Charismatic movement that I just can't explain away!
Tongues don't need to be interpreted when they're used as a private prayer language!
One more: I've had visions, spoken in tongues, and prophesied, so the gifts MUST be for today!
Romans 8:26 talks about spirit-praying in non-words.
If we researched and criticized all the crooks, cons, and cookies in the Charismatic movement, we'd have no time for anything else.
(another serious one) If NT prophecy is not "secret knowledge"/"divine revelation" material since we should test it (1 Thess./1 Cor. 14) than what, in your definition, Dan, IS it?
Acts is meant to show us what the church should look like today.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so there!
You have too much sin in your life for the gifts to work.
Half a billion people can't be wrong, can they?!?
It's your intellectual pride that keeps you from experiencing the truth.
But charismatic Benny Hinn can't be all bad because his name reminds me vaguely of Benny Hill, the comedic little English guy that was always running around really fast.
Who are you to limit what God can do?
He had healing rooms where over 100,000 people were cured.
He raised 13 people from the dead and it's documented!
The reason why healing, miracles, etc. is not happening in America like in the NT is because we don't have enough faith!
You make the Bible the third person of the Trinity, and deny the Holy Spirit.
If all we have are the Scriptures, and the gifts have ceased, then where's the power we were supposed to have when the Holy Spirit filled us?
The sermons of cessationists are dry as dust.
I tried to read all these.
Really, I did.
Cessationists believe that God stopped speaking once the canon was closed (at Council of Nicea).
John MacArthur said that Lloyd-Jones was in the "good stream," in a conference on the Holy Spirit.
< facepalm >
There's always one. And it's always Frank.
And no: that doesn't mean ANYONE ELSE can break the rules. Which, BTW, great stuff, thank you.
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. John 8:15
"Some people think the Trinity is the Father, Son, and Holy Bible." -Paraphrase of Mark Driscoll
You can't deny the existence of the apostolic gifts just because of some excess somewhere.
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? Romans 14:4a
"I've been casting out demons for [umpteen] years with the help of my wife who has the gift of discernment." -Quote from a missionary I once knew.
"My pastor came up and told me that I have the gift of prophesy." -Quote from a fellow from another church in my area.
The Holy Spirit doesn't go on hiatus.
"Everyone was talking in tongues and I didn't for a long time, until the other week I finally got the Holy Spirit..." -Paraphrase from a friend of mine who married a Pentacostal and started going to her church
The instructions regarding spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. 12-14 wouldn't be in the Bible unless they still apply to us today.
God does not change, so He can't physically be able to stop giving miraculous gifts.
Just because prophets prophesy falsely doesn't make them false prophets.
Our prophecies are generally false and our healings are fake, but that doesn't mean it's not the Spirit moving.
There's no false prophecies... God just changed His mind!
Even though the modern manifestation of prophecy, tongues and healing bear no resemblance to what is described in Scripture, I feel warm all over when I experience it.
As Dan Phillips would say, while "Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises" - the gifts are of lesser quality.
So are you accusing Charismatics of plagiarism regarding the spiritual gifts?
You're just being divisive.
God communicated clearly and accurately but the human instrument did not.
We only see miraculous healings in far off places because they people there aren't distracted by TV, entertainment, technology, and wealth.
spurgeon...Spurgeon...SPURGEON!!
So are you saying that Pastor (so and so) is wrong?
Are you sure you're not going too far towards the deistic extreme in your opposition to continuationism?
Since my Aunt Gertrude’s sore toe was healed after placing a prayer hanky on it, do you really want to lumped in with the Pharisees who accused Jesus of doing miracles by the power of Beelzebub?
How can you say that God doesn't get a warm fuzzy when 10,000 people in the megachurch down the street are worshipping Him in their hearts and praising Him with the 'tongues of angels'?
Wait, Pat Robertson's gift of hurricane deflection is not legit???
I feel God's presence when I'm speaking in tongues so how do explain that?
"The wind blows where it wishes.... So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" - John 3:8
God wouldn't let believers be deceived about something as important as spiritual manifestations.
People often abuse teaching and other gifts, but you don't say those are illegitimate gifts.
You shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
It's a facile distinction that cessationists make when they say they believe in divine healing, but not in divine healers.
Since Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he heard the still, small voice of God, why wouldn't we expect to hear God's voice today?
The Bible doesn't tell me which job I should take, who you should marry, or what we should name our next child, so we need to wait and pray and ask Him to tell us.
If you only hear God through reading the Bible, I feel sad for you that you don't have a deeper, 2-way intimate relationship with God.
If gifts has ceased, how do you explain Mark Driscoll's pornographic visions of women in his church? :)
You're just worried that you won't appear sophisticated enough to the secular world if you admit miracles still happen.
"My sheep hear My voice."
The Bible gives miracle after miracle for thousands of years, but around 100 A.D. or so, God just picks up, leaves, and is never seen or heard from again?
If all modern day miracles are fake, how do you know that miracles 2000 years ago weren't also fake?
"nosdfjifeooo jjifoowsdfsefco giroaoiosd fioeosdfojir jgiorojasdee fooifooreddfieefsdf fioeosdfojir"
(that's me speaking in tongues, which proves continuationism. If anyone on here has the gift of interpretation, I welcome a translation.)
(True story) "I didn't know why, but God told me to take chocolate pudding to a friend, so I went out of my way to drive to her workplace, gave it to her, and she cried because she hadn't told anyone that her marriage was falling apart, so you wanna tell me that wasn't God?"
Paul Reed, translation: "The gifts have not ceased and I give this prophecy to demonstrate it so that my church will be sustained and made to prosper with all riches and health in a miraculous way so the world may know that I speak through my latter day prophets."
Since prayer is a conversation, God clearly still speaks.
(Or one that I've heard so often I could lose my cookies over it) I know God still speaks...He just does.
I'm not claiming my word from the Lord is equal to the prophecies in the Bible.
You are calling me a false prophet just because my prophecy didn't come true, well, ummmm.....look over there, a SQUIRREL!!
Why yes, I am saying that God can speak in non-authoritative ways....He's God, He can do anything.
Omigosh, Dave, that last one is I think the funniest of all.
(What some may be thinking) If the gifts really don't continue, since I've thought for all these years that they have, taught that they have, argued that they have, claimed with authority that I've experienced something, that means I have to go back on all of that, claim that I've been wrong all this time about that, and maybe even ask some serious questions concerning whether I actually believe what God said in His Word in the first place; and that scares me.
Just because I claim to hear from Jesus and then write down what He says for others to read, believe, and obey does not mean I put these words on par with scripture.
(Webster...that was me.) Are you trying to say that everything I've based my relationship with God on, is untrue?
Dr. MacArthur once said "X" and it was clearly way too broad of a statement, and he's a cessationist, so you're clearly on the wrong side of history here.
So-and-so is a charismatic and he's the godliest man I know.
I just knew when I met her that we were to be married, and here we are 55 years later, still happily married!
Cessationism advocates dead and dry orthodoxy by muting God and putting Him in a box.
But we need "the fire" don't we?
You have head knowledge of God, but not heart knowledge.
Where do you get the power to live a godly life if not from the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I don't believe in a mute God dogma, and God doesn't leave His genuine children being unable to hear from Him.
You're just arguing from (lack of) experience.
Anyone who reads the bible would arrive at a continuationist position unless someone indoctrinates them.
You Calvinists...you're just so...intellectual that you've left no room for the Spirit.
God has called me to not take out the trash, Dear....do you want me to go against God's will?
God spoke to me and I know it, I don't care what you say.
BBrrrraahhhtakatiki-mokajava, there, interpret that!
You cannot put no one puts new wine into old wineskins so we need new forms for the new moves of the spirit.
This may be a new method of the Holy Spirit exercising the sign gifts He gave to the early church, and I don't want to be guilty of calling something wrong that may be right.
Don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Single verses diverge into many opinions whereas the Bible teaches the singular, whole Truth.
Are you just jealous because you don't have the gifts?
Where in the Bible does it say that the gifts will cease?
You eventually end up with academic Christianity, where you have to believe in the Resurrection because otherwise you wouldn't have a religion, but every miracle before that and every miracle after that is complete B.S.
Just because I claim to hear from Jesus and then write down what He says for others to read, believe, and obey does not mean I am claiming to be a prophet.
What's so special about Acts?
Interpretation of corinthian's comment: "Don't be filled with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit, and for visitors we have free mocha in our coffee center."
John 14 says we would do the works of Jesus and even gretaer works
Oh good heavens, I can't believe none of us (including me) have done that one yet.
Ps 46:10 - Be still, and know that I am God....and will then whisperingly proclaim to you all sorts of private utterances that you can use at your discretion throughout your, what otherwise would be, mundane and un-truly-spiritual life.
Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! Numbers 11:29
"Bible, babble, bobble; Luther has the Bible, we have the Holy Spirit." -Thomas Munster.
"Bible, babble, booble; Luther has the Bible, we have the Holy Spirit." - Thomas Munster
You say there's no example of a modern miracle, but what about Mark Driscoll writing the exact same words as all those other people; isn't that a miracle?
...which is not even to mention the miraculous disappearance of tweets, blogs, etc...
1 Corinthians 13:10: "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."
The perfect must mean the return of Christ, so gifts continue until he returns.
Yeah, I know, I broke the rule in allowing that. I just didn't count the Bible verse.
We would be a powerless church if the gifts were not in operation.
Jesus himself operated in the gifts of the Holy Spirit on a regular basis and we must follow in the footsteps of our Lord and become more like Him.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that the early church was so accustomed to, that they told everybody to pray in the Holy Spirit (Jude 1:20)
When the early church found believers who hadn't yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they made it a priority to get them baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-17)
Pastor says I haven't been filled with the Spirit because I haven't experienced a second blessing at the altar.
The Bible speaks of different times when people were clearly believers, but didn't receive the Holy Spirit until somebody laid hands on them (see Acts 19:2 and Acts 8:14-17) so this proves receiving the Holy Spirit is separate from salvation.
Joel 2:28-31 is a prophecy that was initially fulfilled at Pentecost but is ultimately fulfilled in the time right before the Rapture which happens to be the days we are living in now.
Though my position leads me to believe that you cessationists are lost in sin by grieving the Holy Spirit, I will do the loving thing and NOT correct you.
This whole continuation/cessation argument is pointless because...we can agree to disagree and still all be brothers in Christ, and follow our individual visions from God.
There's no way that hundreds of thousands of people are wrong!
If only you had faith the size of a mustard seed....
Matthew 10:8 says we are to go and perform these gifts for the world, but we can still collect money for it because verses 9 and 10 only applied to the 12 disciples.
You can't moderate and delete God's comments as you are doing here!
A man's ministry and measure of his gifts shouldn't be tainted by his personal behavior.
The Bible speaks of the Latter rains which are (apparently) always heavier than the early rains, so the gifts must continue and more so!
We need the gifts to evangelize effectively.
You worship a book. I worship the living God (Joel winces as he types that)
The existence of counterfeits implies that the real thing also exists, does it not?
Doesn't the existence of counterfeits imply the existence of the real thing?
Hey, if Phil Johnson can keep churning out two great posts like this one every week for years after retiring, what supernatural things aren't possible?
How do demons get cast out?
"I've experienced it so it must be true"
We are commanded that if we earnestly seek him, we will find him. Clearly find him means him speaking to us. SERIOUSLY. From This sermon series. http://centralbcs.org/sermons/series/How-God-Speaks
Scottish Calvinist during the 17th centuty persecution had prophets who foretold things that would happen
I felt warmth when so-and-so anointed me.
Starting in the 1930's through the mid 1940's, hundreds of thousands of Germans were wrong.
The gifts continue because of Sola Scriptura.
If I ask for tongues then God is obligated to give them to me.
Speaking tongues is a practice; I use some nonsense syllables to get started but after that they're the real deal.
If spiritual warfare is still relevant then we must still be given spiritual gifts, also.
The movement of the Holy Spirit is the secret ingredient to my famous potato salad, and without it the recipe wouldn't be nearly as flavoursome.
Your Church's lack of ('spiritual') odour must indicate the presence of Iocane powder, a highly toxic substance from Australia(I'm Australian, so I can confirm this); I'd bet my life on it.
If Baalam's donkey can see angels then so can my cat, who didn't screech at all when I tried to baptise her, because she was too saintly to do so.
You can't be spiritual without having the spiritual gifts.
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