17 October 2007

My Wednesday Oops

by Frank Turk

Meant to post another 3-pager on you and your poor church, but I got called out oft own by my day job. Instead of reading me, read the London Baptist Confession of Faith on the church, including all the Scripture proofs.

After you get over your pangs of guilt, think about your poor local church some more and try to think about how much better it would be if you stay.


24 comments:

DJP said...

Would you say that the Confession speaks Biblely to the issue?

centuri0n said...

To keep my response brief, I would say "yes", and if I had more time I would do an exposition of why the LBCF is better than the WCF on this particular issue.

centuri0n said...

"biblely". And you have a Th.M.?

pheh.

DJP said...

People who read the last post and meta will understand, Frank.

Perhaps you could ask one of them to explain it to you?

(c;

centuri0n said...

I read the last post. I'm allowed my daily remedial snark before I go on the road and drive 8-hrs one way for a 1-hr meeting after which I have to sleep on not-my-bed.

centuri0n said...

And watched the video, btw.

DJP said...

Yikes.

I was thinking it'd be a nice T.

"Pyromaniacs: Speaking Biblely Since 2006"

SolaMeanie said...

To both of you . . .

A Christian talk-show host I know out West came up with the term "Bible babble." I'll explain that gem some other time. But wouldn't it be appropriate to call teachers who distort Scripture "vain Bibblers?"

Okay, send me to my room without supper now.

stratagem said...

The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

If you accept the Confession's point #1 above, there is only one church (consisting of the whole number of the elect). Therefore as long as one remains in fellowship locally, it doesn't really matter which subdivision of that one body one may locally stay in. So (taking it to the extreme), even if one drifted between local gatherings of hte elect, one would not have actually "left" the local church.

separateunion said...

"Pyromaniacs: Speaking Biblely Since 2006"

Somehow, I could see some people mishearing that statement and instead hearing:

"Pyromaniacs: Speaking Biblese Since 2006"

thus making them think we are Biblical elitists, or:

"Pyromaniacs: Speaking Bible-ease Since 2006"

making them think that we are selling some sort of program that allows them to learn to read the Bible with ease. You know, like the speed reading guides or something.

Deathrow Bodine said...

think about your poor local church some more and try to think about how much better it would be if you stay

Forgive me, but when I think of my "poor local church"... I must admit how much better it would be if I left! I am the one that is better off, not the church... they pay a heavy price.

separateunion said...

I think that's the kind of selfish attitude that Cent is trying to combat here...

lordodamanor said...

Imbibling- be ye drunk with the HS. Open a bible and pour yourself a strong one!

stratagem- the terms particular, particular societies and churches (plural) eliminate the concept that there is one local universal church. Further read on this Chapter indicates that there is local autonomy. It also makes no provision for denominationalism or conventionalism, instead treats each individual church as an autonomous unit which is subject to review by sister churches but is not bound by any authority beyond its own walls. This Chapter also provides for exclusive communion. Which makes sense when discipline is also confined within the local fellowship called a church.

St. Upid said...

im new to this blog and found this an interesting post - via the link to the london baptist confession.

after chasing several other links im convinced that it has been well worth my time.

thank you. Ü

stratagem said...

stratagem- the terms particular, particular societies and churches (plural) eliminate the concept that there is one local universal church. Further read on this Chapter indicates that there is local autonomy. It also makes no provision for denominationalism or conventionalism, instead treats each individual church as an autonomous unit which is subject to review by sister churches but is not bound by any authority beyond its own walls. This Chapter also provides for exclusive communion. Which makes sense when discipline is also confined within the local fellowship called a church.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't think it 'eliminates' the possibility, it would be more accurate to say that in your opinion it eliminates it. My opinion would be that a plain reading of article 1 would suggest that any manmade compartments in the Body are of minimal importance compared to the great definition of the church being the whole of the elect. Forgetting this has led to a lot of denominationalizing over the years where there may not have been a need for same.

But, if you torture the verbiage long enough, it will confess.

Disclaimer: The above is only my opinion about what you wrote, which is your opinion of what the Confession is saying, which is in turn only the Confession writers' opinions of what the Bible is saying.

Personally, I prefer what Dan wrote yesterday, "I know nothing except what the Bible has told me." Directly. I think the Confession is a pretty good confession, as confessions go; or better yet it would be a good Confession if it were written in American so a non-egghead could understand it.

Sewing said...

Cent, of course the LBCF is superior to the WCF on all issues, not just this particular issue. (Though we should defer to the Westminster Divines for coming up with the original document.)

Being slightly tongue-in-cheek here, so I hope there aren't any angry Presbyterians or Anglicans lurking around....

mkz said...

I also enjoyed the post and the relevant scripture for context. This helps me to understand how blessed I am to be in a biblely expositing theologically orthodox Piper/MacArthur/Spurgeon loving small New England town church. Even if it is in Liberalchussettes.

centuriOn, your eyebrow is truly troubling.......

Jim Pemberton said...

"Imbibling- be ye drunk with the HS. Open a bible and pour yourself a strong one!"

Isn't this one of the feature of the iBible?

mkz said...

ibible,

HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW!!!!

lordodamanor said...

Sorry stratagem-

I took what you were saying to mean that a person could be a floater because there was no defined particularity in the confession. Particularity is clear in this Chapter especially in light of the twelth paragraph where membership within a particular assembly is enunciated and last paragraph where a magisterium is ruled out but individual congregations in cooperation are spoken of. A universal body would require a centralized authority to exercise discipline, imo, but here the authority is proscribed. The confession places authority within unique bodies- autonomously. I think this follows more correctly the implicit instruction of Scripture where we see locality, not universality addressed when dealing with church government. Even the Jerusalem Council did not issue a dictum that Gentiles must obey the structured church "law" of the Jews, but merely instruction that the Gentiles "should" follow, what conscience and Scripture would dictate as proper.

Solidifying of local autonomy in the confession is probably a product of the historical milieu. The Presbys were already moving towards a more decentralized collegium that in some areas would produce congregationalism. Baptists it seems were a step ahead.

(Sorry for mixing in terms like collegium and magisterium, usually associated with Catholocism, but you get my point.)

I would have to agree that in the end what really matters is what the Bible has to say on the matter. Which is why we are not still Presbyterian and have developed our own confession, because, upon some of these matters, "local" opinion establishes what the Scripture can be interpreted as saying. Where presbyterians see a centralized ruling body over many churches, we see the local church, independent and comprised of a presbytery within known as a body of Elders who have oversight of a particular, unique, discrete, flock.

IMO

Deathrow Bodine said...

separateunion:
I think that's the kind of selfish attitude that Cent is trying to combat here...

Exactly, I was attempting to humbly take the point abit further in that "just staying" is not enough... that we should be convicted to contribute.

Guess I failed. No gold stars on my comment paper.

bassicallymike said...

I admit I am really strugling to do the right thing in this area right now. Amos 3:3 comes to mind and as I am not the one who has moved, I feel like I am not bound to remain. I know from the past that if you are not really content where you are, you are not gonna be very excited about evangelism. (is this as good as for the kids?)

Dr.Mac's GTY radio broadcast today included a line similar to this "The corporate testimony of the church you are associated with affects your personal credibility in evangelism." (Forgive me if I butchered that.) I can't help but believe from the story of Paul and Barnabas severe disagreement, that God allows for variations of tempernents and eventually works things out for our good and His glory. I am not one to church hop. We've been at the present one for ten years. But as I said, I don't feel like I am the one that has moved. How can we walk together unless we are in agreement.

Thoughts?? I am open to correction.

centuri0n said...

Mike:

Have you pursued Mat 18 with your church? Have you tried to tell your brother what he has done wrong?

bassicallymike said...

Cent,
Although I did not raise an objection to each change, I did question some of the moves that were being made. I feel like an odd man out and that most everyone else is content with the direction things are going, hence my tendency to not stay and fight so to speak.