02 May 2012

BoB2012: The Gooey Center

by Frank Turk


For those curious, the audio of the event is still stored at the Southern Seminary archive (click to listen; right-click to download)

The  most interesting thing that happened last week after starting this 3-part series on Band of Bloggers 2012 was not the passive-aggressive tweets which, when called out, got deleted.  It was this tweet stream I received literally yesterday:

OK: STOP a second.  I have been advised that, for the sake of good order, it ought to be noted that the tweets below are utterly false -- that the people mentioned here are not and have never been members of Tim Brister's church.  


That is actually my point in saying these tweets are a "parable" of how comments work on the internet.  If that was not clear, please let it be clear now: in no way were these tweets clipped and posted here to reproach Grace Baptist Church, its members, or its elders for any behavior in their local church.  These comments, as they say in the KJV, stinketh, and ought to be a lesson to the rest of us as to how not to behave on the internet.


As evidence of such a thing, note that these comments are now evaporated -- as is the habit of people who can't engage the "edify" filter before hitting "post".


You know who you are.



Timmy, whom I could not identify in the first two minutes of the audio, was attacked -- according to this person who fled his church.  Mull that over as a monument to how the internet works.

Anyway, I was going to undertake an extended consideration of the reflections on how blog comments work and ought to work according to the young men of Band of Bloggers, but this example and the tweets which got deleted last week will have to be a parable of the whole thing.  I'll lay off for a week and just post my rough outline of BoB for you as a PDF you can download, right here.

Next week, in our final installment, I'll undertake to discuss, in a helpful way, section 3 of that outline.  It's the part you're dying to read anyway, so consider today a breather.








78 comments:

Andrew Lindsey said...

The outline looks accurate, and also non-controversial.

As you briefly mention, the real controversy comes only in section 3, and then (except, possibly, for Challies' statement that ER2 was "very compressed"-- about which I do NOT think he's lying, but DO think he's mis-remembering) the controversy only involves statements by Hansen and Taylor, though the fact that Tim and Timmy didn't say anything else about ER2 specifically, and Owen at least *seemed* to approve of the statements, made it feel as if the panel was in agreement on the issue

Andrew Lindsey said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Frank Turk said...

This is post 2 of 3. It's the center of the series. It's not my normal hardness. Thus: The Gooey Center.

I'm pretty sure I disn't say anything at all about TGC in this post, and have been ruthlessly intentional in linking via twitter to the good things they do over there this week.

Let's not put arguments in my mouth until I have made then, please.

Tom Chantry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Andrew Lindsey said...

I deleted a comment above because it was wrong and unhelpful.

Which makes centuri0n and Chantry's comments look schizophrenic.

Merrilee Stevenson said...

Professor Turk, that was quite an outline! In many ways, it comes full circle to your first post. Forgive me for asking for information you may have already provided thus far in the lecture; is the BoB12 audio (or video) available online? I'm expecting to be edified & transformed by the renewing of my mind.

Tom Chantry said...

Which makes centuri0n and Chantry's comments look schizophrenic.

So, situation normal. The thread is moving along swimmingly.

Merrilee Stevenson said...

And in case my last statement was too ambiguous, I'm expecting those things from you, not from the BoB audio.

Frank Turk said...

I also have the highest respect for Andrew Lindsey as a fan of this blog and as a young fellow seeking to set himself on the right path.

dac said...

I'm pretty sure I disn't say anything at all about TGC in this post, and have been ruthlessly intentional in linking via twitter to the good things they do over there this week.

I would agree, but it begs the question why (before this week) have you been so aggressive in going after them?

Merrilee Stevenson said...

Such efficiency and service! Thank you.

And I'm sorry for sounding like a twit. It certainly is possible that I could be edified from the audio. I'm hoping for that too.

Robert said...

Dac,

Have you bothered to pay attention in the past? Or have you just come in with a predisposition to think that Frank and teampyro are overly critical?

Frank Turk said...

It's a good thing facts are not necessary to make the declaration that we at TeamPyro (or me personally) have been "so aggressive in going after them".

However, I am sure that dac is thinking of my post from next week which is in draft on my laptop and has not yet seen the light of day -- so points for being prophetic and, as they say in the BoB audio middle section, "helpful" and "edifying".

DJP said...

It's sad (and I don't mean that snarkily) that when I see "dac" in my inbox as a commenter on a Frank-thread, my first thought is "Oh dear, what way of bullheadedly missing the point has he devised this time?"

I hate the comment system. Most people appreciate the post and don't hit the stars; a couple of I-just-hate-[author] malcontents hit one star just on principle, and the writer is discouraged.

Well, I hit five. Thanks for the characteristically conscientious work that no one else is doing on this, Frank.

I honest think there's room for a blog titled "Cool and Important Things Elitist Bloggers Won't Tell You About."

Merrilee Stevenson said...

@DJP, I vote for that to be the name of Mrs. Turk's blog.

David Kjos said...

In the spirit of being helpful and edifying, as well as pedantic:

Begs the Question

Michael R. Jones said...

Hmmmm...were we reading the same blog post? Christians are as bad as liberals at interpreting any criticism as a hateful attack, no matter how gently it is delivered.

Btw, I clicked 5 stars and am going to be more diligent on that in the future. Y'all deserve some encouragement for the work y'all do!

This was one of the first Christian blogs I ever read and it is still at the top of my list. I appreciate all three of you and pray for you all regularly.

Frank Turk said...

I think you lost me, David.

yankeegospelgirl said...

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around those bizarre tweets.

yankeegospelgirl said...

David is pointing out that "begs the question" is commonly misused to mean "leads to the question" or "begets the question," when it's actually a technical philosophical term that means to assume the conclusion when making an argument.

David Kjos said...

Frank:

Sorry, that was a comment on a comment.

Michael R. Jones said...

YGG:

I'm still wondering about those tweets myself. I'm not quite sure what @GatorBuckeye68 meant at all.

I assume it's just because I'm dense but I'd appreciate it if someone spelled it out.

Tom Chantry said...

Clearly Kjos was questioning all the begging.

I like this thread. It's fun.

Daryl said...

If Timmy (or anyone else) was attacked in that audio, then either there's a ton of back-story that I don't know, or I just missed it completely.

I heard no attack.

I did like the suggestion of replacing "publish" with "edify"...

CCinTn said...

Does the gooey center and Frank's comments at 4:01 also mean that in the deepest recesses of his being he is just a big ole softie? He doesnt come off as quite the menace when you know he's just a puppy dog at heart :-)

I have never been able to figure out where you are supposed to rank these posts. Where are these stars everyone is talking about? Put me down for 5 for the first two of this series...

Tom Chantry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Merrilee Stevenson said...

"I did like the suggestion of replacing 'publish' with 'edify'..."

If that happens, the powers that be would have to replace "Prove you're not a robot" with "Prove you really are humble." And then you'd only have...crickets chirping.

Michael R. Jones said...

CCinTN:

The stars are directly under the title and above the author's name. The stars to the left are the rating the piece already has. The stars to the right are where you rank the post by clicking on how many stars you want to give to the piece.

CCinTn said...

Thanks Michael. That must mean that the firewall I'm behind must not let that come through for some reason since I'm not seeing them. Either in the original post or when I come over to leave a comment. I'll check how it comes through at home...

Brett R said...

My wife wants to help me paint our fence to day.

We all know what that means:

IT'S AN ATTACK!

yankeegospelgirl said...

Well, presumably this individual had some kind of bad experience that he didn't want to elaborate on, and felt a need to share this fact with Frank. For some reason.

Michael R. Jones said...

Thanks YGG, I guess I didn't miss anything after all except what was unspoken to begin with. As frank said, "Mull that over as a monument to how the internet works."

Larry Geiger said...

I never know what's going on. Sometimes (particularly with Dan) I can figure out some of what folks are talking about on Pyro. Other times I have absolutely no clue. Reading twice doesn't seem to help. It's ok. I'll just wait for the next Spurgeon post. Now those usually make sense.

Sir Aaron said...

Don't worry Frank. I have a gooey center too, but I'm dieting and working on a great ab routine. ;)

(because it makes as much sense as the other comments on this meta)

CCinTn said...

According to the audio of BoB, when they got to the ER2 issue, Timmy used Proverbs 18 to broadly paint anyone who was ‘speaking’ before the event even occurred as committing folly. Not to keep picking at this scab, but I think the scripture here is plainly saying not to make decisions or render judgements before obtaining the facts.
This was not the case with ER2 as there were plenty of facts regarding TD Jakes’ views on the Trinity as well as his involvement with Word of Faith teachings. The issue was the level of discernment in allowing Jakes this platform and the constant referrals to Jakes as being a brother in Christ and his holding an orthodox view of the Trinity.

For all of the assurances given by McDonald and crew, the event went as it was feared.

I’m intrigued that on the audio of the BoB event that the word ‘debacle’ was used in regards to ER2. That is the first hint of an acknowledgement of the severity of what ER2 was. Up to this point, all we’ve had (except from some such as Thaibiti) is the grandfatherly “now, now”

I also was intrigued by the acknowledgement of the hands off treatment folks such as Billy Graham get from those at CT etc and that being a barrier at TGC. Are they addressing that? Did Paul give Peter a pass because he was an Apostle?

It’s all so sad. They just don’t get it. The heads are so far in the sand that all you can see is the bottoms of their feet.

ad nauseum said...

3 biggest battles in history:
-Sylvester Stallone vs Apollo Creed
-Godzilla vs Mothra
-Frank Turk vs The Internet

Keep up the good fight Mr. Turk, your patients is incredible

Larry Geiger said...

Mr. Turk is a doctor?

Frank Turk said...

Ad naus:

iPhone auto-correct victims untype. We are so very oven misanthroped, as in my first comment in this threat.

Godzilla vs. Mothra indeed.

Andrew and Abby said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Andrew Lindsey said...

re: "According to the audio of BoB, when they got to the ER2 issue, Timmy used Proverbs 18 to broadly paint anyone who was ‘speaking’ before the event even occurred as committing folly."

-The thing was, they were talking about 3 things at one time, and the things were not alike. So that the verse Timmy cited was properly applicable (I think) to SGM and even to Bethke, but not to ER2.

timmybrister.com said...

Frank,

I wish I could contribute to a blogpost with me as the subject. I don't know where I was "attacked." And for that matter, I don't know Douglas McKay. I honestly don't think I've ever met that guy. I don't know how a person could "flee" a church he was never a part of. The fact that this blogpost exists is case in point as to my comments regarding Proverbs 18 in the panel discussion.

Regarding deleted tweets, I deleted one which I regret making regarding my interaction with you.

DJP said...

Maybe "Douglas McKay" is an anagram. You know, for... for... for Yack M'Dougals.

Okay, I got nothing.

/c:

Andrew Lindsey said...

Re: "I'm still wondering about those tweets myself. I'm not quite sure what @GatorBuckeye68 meant at all."

-ditto

Aaron Snell said...

Maky Gascloud?

DJP said...

A. Snell FTW.

Aaron Snell said...

I can't believe I beat Tom to it.

dac said...

My mistake. I guess I should ignore the twitter posts on why TP was dropped from blog rolls on TGC, or those delightful interactions with Trevin, or the whole think about why doesn't Dan's books don't get love from TGC, or the snark on Driscoll and TGC or...

Frank Turk said...

dac --

just to be sure I follow you, you're saying that all tweets regarding MD should be construed as tweets against TGC?

I think it's equally-challenging to say that tweets about JT should be construed as tweets against TGC.

However, as usual, you must be right. Please have the last word.

The Damer said...

Translation:
I was for Timmy Brister before I was against him plus Frank Turk is a meanie.

Goggle Kid said...

I like the Wizard of Oz! I like the Tin Man!

DJP said...

You do?

As for me...

Frank Turk said...

Damer:

Yeah, what's new?

Maky Gascloud said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Maky Gascloud said...

I was googling my name and I am offended that my family reputation is here changed into some kind of anagrammatical joke.

I demand an apology

Tom Chantry said...

Does Maky have a Twitter account? I'd like to follow him. (Although, for the sake of wisdom, from a considerable distance.)

scotsman1611 said...

You may notice that the sender of the tweet pictured has been blocked out to protect his identity. I know this because I'm Douglas McKay (and I have eyes). I have never been a member of GBC nor have I flown from it. My closest association with Mr. Brister was participating in his 2008 Puritan reading challenge which did me tremendous good.

Stephen said...

Frank, I think there was some confusion because you blotted out the actual name of the person who tweeted all those things in your screenshot. The McKay fellow seems to be merely a twitter friend of the guy (last name King) who was actually tweeting you; McKay never said he went to Tim Brister's church. Unless there was private conversation we are not privy to (!!), Tim only mentioned that he knew no McKay.

The 'parable' I took away is this: the actual tweeter in question, though he has now privatized his page, seemed like a genuine enough guy, didn't really know how twitter worked. But that's the thing with the internet, everybody fumbling about like they know what they're doing and not realizing that what they say never goes away. We have to guard our fingers now even much more I think than when James said we have to guard our tongues. And it goes both ways - when words mean something, you have to make them count. Or don't use them at all.

Andrew Lindsey said...

Maky Gascloud: I think that this is now the greatest comment thread ever. (Even though I'm not quite sure what's going on.). Now we just need a "like ministry!" and for someone to mention pterodactyls.

Frank Turk said...

If it was implied by any means, that Doug McKay was the sender of those tweets, let the record be clear that he was not.

Stephen said...

And of course, as soon as I hit publish, my words count for nothing. Always gotta check the updated meta before publishing...

Frank Turk said...

I am actually amused, btw, how testy this post has made everyone. I think some people didn't read the post very closely, some people have a guilty conscience, and some people want to take offense.

But not Maky Gascloud: he's actually an offended party, and his offense needs to be dealt with by means equal to the offense.

Stephen said...

If I could threadjack for just one quick second, I would ask Douglas aka scotsman1611 to answer one simple question: how does a man get the twitter handle GatorBuckeye68? The Urban Meyer connection, if that's the reason, seems incredible for someone that started out as a Gator fan and went through the rollercoaster of Urban's final year coaching there.

Rachael Starke said...

'm sorry that my schedule these days makes it tough to read and interact with these posts like I used to. I have to confess that I could only scan this one, and I join the ranks of those who didn't quite get it

But, this thread is one of the most hilarious vintage crazy Pyro stream of consciousness threads I have read in ages. I am still wiping the tears of laughter away.

IOW, I have been both blessed and edified and I thank you all.

Linda said...

You guys keep talking about gooey filled center and all I can think about is pastry filled donuts cherry filled

Tom Chantry said...

I noticed that Dan hasn't posted yet today. I can only assume that he is so enthralled with this meta that he doesn't want it to end.

Carry on.

Michael R. Jones said...

My last comment was at 9:46 AM, May 02, 2012 and I said to myself, "No need to check back. Nothing much going on over there."

Boy was I wrong!

For the record, I still don't get it:

Who did or didn't go to Brister's church? Was it the other guy not the GatorBuckeye68?

Who's Maky Gascloud? Just some dude who got drug into this?

Now I know why my mother hated to miss her "shows" every day before we got a VCR.

Goggle Kid said...

I like Santa.

CCinTn said...

Michael Jones,
you asked "Who's Maky Gascloud? Just some dude who got drug into this?"

He seemed to appear out of thin air but he doesn't pass the smell test.

Frank Turk said...

Linda -- Me too.

Michael R. Jones said...

CCinTN:

And no sooner do you write it than the mysterious Maky delete his comment.

All in all, though, his was an entertaining profile.

Tom Chantry said...

Maky didn't go anywhere. Are you telling me you didn't notice his distinctive aroma? Phew!

Jules LaPierre said...

Joining the ranks of, "I don't get this post, but thanks for the cool thread".

Marla said...

Ditto what Jules said. Glad I'm not the only one.

Aaron Snell said...

Now I feel a bit like this guy.

Aaron Snell said...

Don't try to pretend it wasn't you, Maky. We have your number.

threegirldad said...

Carry on.

And, no doubt, people will--in both senses of the phrase.

;-)

Dan McGhee said...

I'm posting in this thread just so I can say I did;)

Merrilee Stevenson said...

Okay, Frank:

I'm coming back to this old thread (because the other BOB thread was hijacked and comments shut down), and I think this is where these comments belong anyway.

This post (the Pop Quiz that has attracted the attention of a particularly ambitious Jehovah's Witness) is something to take note of, in view of the discussion about blogging. The BOB guys would say that allowing such heresy to be in the comments of a Christian blog is the equivalent to saying those heresies yourself. So my example would be an example in favor of moderating comments and only "people who agree with us" will be allowed through.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you'd say that my example is one that shows how blogging can be a useful tool for the gospel and evangelism. There are "people who do not agree with us" out there in the world wide web, and they are looking for answers. Sometimes they are looking for arguments, but sometimes they end up finding the answers because they were allowed in and allowed to be part of the conversation. (Those last two words have become charged with meaning, but you know what I'm getting at.)

So in the case of the controversial issues within the context of all the various evangelical organizations, the blog conversations happen (ideally) so that we can come to an understanding of Scripture, to repent and in faith be conformed to what Scripture teaches. And in the context of daily life, current issues, and all things pertaining to "the world out there" (outside of the body of believers), the blog conversations happen (ideally) so that anyone who reads comes to an understanding of Scripture and one's need to repent and trust in Christ and be transformed by what Scripture teaches.

In both types of "blog subject matter," the gospel is the key--both for resolving matters within the body of Christ, and for resolving the matter between God and man. I think that is one area of the issue that was not even touched upon in the BOB discussion. And the Pop Quiz thread reminded me of it. It's one of the reasons I love reading this blog. I'm learning by observing others (in the comments thread as well as in the posts) how it can be done well. And ultimately, hopefully, I am applying what I learn to the very real context of my local church and my flesh-and-bone unbelieving neighbors.

Thank you! Now back to...wherever we are...