Don't have anything ready to serve at the moment, nor the time to finish cooking what's on the drawing board (how many mixed metaphors is that?). So I'll point back to Frank's, and add a couple of tight-lipped thoughts.
- Luke 12:48b is surely germane in this connection, is it not?
- I would also point out what Thabiti Anyabwile said about celebrity pastors at T4G12, if I understood him correctly: Actress X would not be a star if truckloads of people didn't buy tickets to her movies. Transferring the metaphor, readers must take responsibility that Blogger X would not have the prominence he enjoys without truckloads of clicks, retweets, follows and links. Just sayin'.
- Even granting that serious, weighty, dire, intense and personal discussions were being carried on behind closed doors, is there anything in this post or this post that relied on "facts not in evidence"?
- What would have happened differently if, instead of taking a posture of unawareness of (or sullen resentment towards) all such posts on various blogs, TGC blogs and leadership and other leading voices had taken such concerns seriously before (to quote Frank) "all the wrong that could be done was actually accomplished"?
- And finally, this can't be pointed to enough, if only for a needed sad chuckle:
18 comments:
Sadly, the words from top men on how to handle this are on record, but are being ignored. And for anybody who says that we need to but out, I'd refer them to Titus 2:15. We're supposed to call people to deny ungodliness and let nobody disregard us.
"Top Men". I didn't even need to watch the video. :)
Very sad that JM got a pass, refused to repent, and has gone on like nothing happened and we're all the ones with problems. *sigh*
Really, the trinity is not that important? "God wants you to be wealthy, healthy & happy" is not another gospel? Really????
Lay off the movie references. You're stepping on my turf. :D
Of course we know why those two posts have been ignored. They're simple. They're clear. And they're irrefutable.
This question may sound snide, but I assure you it is not.
Since red flags were promptly raised following the announcement of Jakes inclusion in ER2, and have been raised repeatedly since, how long do we wait?
Jules,
I'm not sure what you mean by waiting. Most of us here at TeamPyro now consider McDonald and Driscoll to be dangerous men, not to be trusted. Can they repent? Yes. But until they do, they are on the outside - if by outside we mean those who should not be heard as ministers of the gospel.
Further, while I was rightly rebuked for part of my second comment on the other thread and backed down from it, I don't back down from this: One further thought, TGC is a dead letter until it acknowledges Collin Hansen's remarks and deals with them. Specifically, the top leadership of TGC needs to acknowledge that the culture of double-standards has existed within their organization, explain how it came to exist, and repudiate it for the future. Until they do, it's folly to trust anything that TGC says.
Given that somewhere between few to none of us have any ecclesiastical pull with any of the men involved, I wonder what action is required? We see and acknowledge the very public folly of these men, and we hopefully prayerfully await their repentance, and in the meantime those with a platform have called them to that repentance. What more would be appropriate?
I greatly appreciate your concern for the Christian people being misled by false teachers while those who should protect them either encourage or ignore the problem. But you keep asking, "How long do we wait?" and I keep wondering, "For what?" We've done what we can/should do, and perhaps this is a problem which we can't fix.
Tom:
I did not know that TeamPyro had formally stated "McDonald and Driscoll to be dangerous men, not to be trusted" and "on the outside...those who should not be heard as ministers of the gospel."
That is what I meant by waiting. Thanks much for your response.
Tim Keller just seems confused. I just watched the link Frank has on Twitter and Keller is just a confusing and confused man. He has no business leading up a Gospel Coalition.
Chris,
I'm one of the unwashed who don't twitter. Would you provide the link you mentioned regarding Tim Keller?
Thanks
I'll post the link. right here.
I am blogging this video on Wednesday, so you can keep your power dry until them. And let me say this plainly: the view Chris takes here probably doesn't account for 65% of this video -- it's based on about 30 seconds of this video which doesn't stand on its own at all.
Jules:
Here's what "TeamPyro" has said:
Let's face it: saying nothing at all is actually less than what Jeff did. Ignoring the public spin of those doing the wrong thing, which were tantamount to lies and obfuscations, is less than what Jeff did. Failing to speak up until all the wrong that could be done was actually accomplished is far less than what Jeff Bethke did.
That's pretty clear on all parties.
I also said this:
Someone needs to check the date for Mark Driscoll's shelf life as a reliable person. In the past month, he utterly disgraced himself on the "Unbelievable" podcast by interrogating this host, Justin Brierly, and accusing him and the whole British Christian church of being a flop because they also don't have a Mark Driscoll, and they have a few women pastors. But, when the other shoe drops and he has Bishop Jakes sitting before him in a place where there are supposed to be hard conversations, Bishop Jakes gets the velvet gloves -- including a complete whiff at the issue of egalitarianism in Jakes' own theology and church. Of course, Jakes was not criticizing Driscoll's book, so the question of whether he's a good egalitarian or a bad one seems to fade in the distance.
Dan also posted a picture of a wolf in sheep's clothing next to his commentary on MacDonald back in November.
So I think we have been pretty clear, if not magisterially judicial, regarding these fellows.
Sigh
Frank hijacking a meta to a post that has his name in the title. It's like a perfect storm of nostalgia.
Good times.
Oh my gosh. There are hard questions. This isn't one of them. When a pastor finds it hard, we're learning nothing about God and a lot about him.
"Magisterially judicial." Chuckle.
Frank, I'll await your thoughts next Wednesday. I imagine they'll spark a comment or two.
I don't know if you are restricting your post to just the Keller video or whether you are going to pull in other recent titanic shots AT the bow (not over) regarding this issue. Specifically I'm thinking of the Andy Stanley issue.
At some point I hope to hear the Pyro guys' take on the T4G Panel Discussion on Gay Marriage. I was very surprised and disappointed that none of the Young Guns participated in the discussion. They were conspicuous by their absence. At least the group I was with thought so. Given that their churches probably are comprised by a majority of 20 and 30 somethings, this issue is one that especially touches their flocks and I would have thought that they would have much to contribute to the discussion.
I fear that something is afoot in the seeker-sensitive/emergent and YRR camps...
Have a wonderful time in the Lord's House on Sunday.
I'll admit that I too didn't particularly care for the Keller video link. I also read his book on idols and was underwhelmed. I reviewed it and showed why some of his attempted "illustrations" were awkward and unconvincing. The section about Leah and her sons was especially embarrassing. He didn't seem to understand the passage at all.
DJP, assume you're talking about the homosexuality question posed to Keller? Right there with you if so.
Thanks for opening up the comments about the SGM situation.
I honestly don't think SGM's problems have much to do with being Charismatic as it does with lack of polity--which I really think was caused by the leaders' pride in thinking they could handle everything the way it was when there were only a few churches.
I attended a SGM church for three years, back when it was called PDI. I was personally invited online by someone who is well known in SGM circles that I had run into in an AOL chat room. I remember joking that "People With Destiny International" sounded like the name of a cult. When I happened to drive by the church when I first moved to the area, I saw that it looked rather normal and decided to visit. I ended up absolutely loving the church. But some things really bothered me. Having come from New England where most churches are congregational, I didn't understand how we didn't know much about how the church was run, where the money was spent, and why pastors were suddenly removed for what seemed like silly reasons (pride) and others put in their place without the congregation's input at all. The child discipline methods being taught were abusive in my opinion. They were very approving if you had a ton of kids and homeschooled them, but if you had just a few kids and said they went to public school they gave you strange looks. I knew of several kids being homeschooled who had no clue how to even read. I knew of kids practically locked up in their houses for fear of letting them mingle with worldly kids. I think a lot of the doctrine being taught was right on, but somehow they got caught up in practicing legalism. There was no balance, and a lot of people got hurt. Another thing...we didn't actually study the Bible in small groups...we studies the sermon from the week before. It seems like women's bible studies and that kind of thing was discouraged.
I ended up moving away, but I can honestly say my experience there has led me to be suspect of pastors and very resistant to joining another group. I am working on that and doing better thanks to the wonderful church I go to now.
SGM's problems, in my opinion, go far beyond the Detwiler debacle. That's only a small portion of it. People in the churches have been damaged by spiritual abuse because of control freaks.
I loved my time at SGM and have a fondness for the group. I've been listening to and watching Joshua Harris very closely, and he's a breath of fresh air. He's going in the right direction in my humble opinion.
I honestly think the AOR report was very strange. They should have stuck to SGM and not the bloggers. I honestly think AOR heaped more hurt on some already hurting people.
I'm not a theologian, or a brainiac, but I am a person with real SGM experience who knows there's a lot of truth to what is being said in the blogs. I'd say it is probably at least 70% true.
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